Topic 28 of 92: Geo Mythology
Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (13:12) |
Marcia (MarciaH)
Creation mythology: Is this also knowledge we have forgotten? This is the place to discuss conjectures and belief systems.
192 responses total.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 1 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (13:30) * 1 lines
Geo 27 touched on the mythology of creationism and how humans got here. The topic became so diverse and threads got so tangled that I created this topic just for the mythology of what exists on the Earth and about the Earth, itself.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 2 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (16:22) * 35 lines
To get this topic up to speed, these are comments from Geo 27:
anne hale (ommin) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000
Talking about beyond the earth = got into a discussion with a Jewish friend of ours on the word Nephalim - or giants
who slept with the children of men. He went on to say that there was some grounds for thinking Zeus, Jupiter, Hercules
etc. from Greek Mythology - perhaps even Mithras, some Egyptian Myths would refer to the same beings not from this
world. They were prevalent pre-flood - and from our studies of the great rift valley near Eilat there is definite proof of a
great flood of some sort some thousands of years ago. Is this relevant to this one if not please Marcia put into the
relevant one. Anne.
anne hale (ommin) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000
By the way it can be found in the Old Testament - Genesis in relation to Noah. Its an interesting topic and some would
say the ley lines, anti-magnetic forms of travelling came from that time. I must get Elliot to perhaps share some of his
thoughts. He is quite a scholar.
Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000
I once took a class on the Book of Genesis. I was confused at the end of the class; I had know idea what was up with
the Book of Genesis. To start with in Hebrew God is sometimes referred to as singular and sometimes as plural. (God
is always referred to as masculine singular, never feminine singular.) Back to God as plural -- there is a passage where
God says that we have done well. Who exactly is he talking to, can't be angels, they didn't have a hand in creation. Then
there are the passages regarding the sons of God, but sometimes called the sons of the gods, who came down to
Earth and lay with the daughters of men. thus giving rise to the giants who walked the Earth. Oh to backtrack, Cain is
banished, goes off and founds the first city, and has a family. Where did these other people come from to populate the
city and to provide Cain with a wife.
Which leads to my embarassing gaffe in understanding the Scriptures. I thought Adam was practicing beastiality with
the animals in the Garden, that was why God felt that it was not good for him to be alone. So God provided him with a
companion. This is where things really got wierd. There is the tradition of Lilith, the first wife of Adam, who refused to
assume a subserviant sexual position to Adam, fled to the Red Sea, and became the consort of Satan. To be fair the
Lilith tradition states that she was created at the same time as Adam and as she fled Eden before the Fall retained her
immortality. Then there is the tradition of the first Eve, she was created after Adam, from the same dust as he. God did
not cause Adam to sleep and he saw her entire creation. It disgusted him, so much he wouldn't even go near her. I have
no idea what happened to the first Eve so the way could be open for the second Eve. She who is said to be the Mother
of Us All, although maybe not of Cain's wife.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 3 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (16:26) * 1 lines
Then there is the gap theory between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 where in God recreated the Earth and Heaven. There is also the problem of the "sons of heaven" looked at the daughters of Earth and saw they were exceeding fair and bred a race of giants... Who were these sons of heaven (oh no...here come the space men again!)??!!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 4 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (16:27) * 1 lines
Of course...there IS the big problem of Lilith...
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 5 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (16:55) * 41 lines
One day in the Garden of Eden, Eve calls out to God...
"Lord, I have a problem!"
"What's the problem, Eve?"
"Lord, I know you've created me and have provided this beautiful garden
and all of these wonderful animals, and that hilarious comedic snake, but
I'm just not happy."
"Why is that, Eve?" came the reply from above.
"Lord, I am lonely. And I'm sick to death of apples."
"Well, Eve, in that case, I have a solution. I shall create a man for you."
"What's a 'man,' Lord?"
"This man will be a flawed creature, with many bad traits. He'll lie,
cheat, and be vainglorious; all in all, he'll give you a hard time.
But he'll be bigger, faster, and will like to hunt and kill things.
He will look silly aroused, but since you've been complaining, I'll
create him in such a way that he will satisfy your ah, physical needs.
He'll be witless and will revel in childish things like fighting and
kicking a ball about. He won't be too smart, so he'll also need your
advice to think properly."
"Sounds great," says Eve, with an ironically raised eyebrow.
"What's the catch, Lord?"
"Yeah, well.... you can have him on one condition."
"What's that, Lord?"
"As I said, he'll be proud, arrogant, and self-admiring...So you'll
have to let him believe that I made him first...So, just remember... it's
our secret...Woman-to-woman!"
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 6 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:06) * 1 lines
Of course it is. That's the secret held by all women. It's why men are prone to whine, "Women! Who can understand them. What do they want? They're so illogical!" Well, excuse me sirs -- we are not at all illogical, speak for yourselves.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 7 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:20) * 1 lines
Yup! It's that "Why?!" chromosome.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 8 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:24) * 1 lines
Too funny!!! I'm convinced men think they're the superior sex because they can urinate standing up. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 9 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:30) * 1 lines
Nope! They know it...same as we do...But, there are such charming ones out there who steal their way into your heart and mess around in there until we are changed but they remain the same. Amazing... and it makes me crazy sometimes!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 10 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:33) * 1 lines
The little devils. It's true they don't really change, nor ever really grow up. For some of them that's part of their charm.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 11 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:45) * 1 lines
Precisely what I told one of the most charming and dangerous man for that very fact. The alternative does not do it for me. They are totally and damnably unforgettable. * s i g h * What is it they say...can't live with them and can't live without them...!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 12 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (17:49) * 1 lines
Too true.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 13 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:33) * 3 lines
(pardon the syntax in my last post...I told you they made me irrational...and far too foolish)
I shall hunt up the Hawaiian creation of the earth story. I do not recall ever hearing one. Mankind, yes... I emailed John, my local encyclopedia.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 14 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:44) * 1 lines
i've never heard of lilith until the lilith concerts. i believe the bible creation story........(this is not to start an argument because we are above that) but it's open to discussion....
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 15 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:44) * 1 lines
Revisiting the Garden of Eden again, there is also the theory of how the serpent and Tree of Knowlege tie into ancient Middle Eastern Goddess based religions. The serpent is a symbol of wisdom closely associated with the Goddess, particularly on Crete. The Philistines may have been displaced Minoans, who brought the worship of their Serpent Goddess with them. Also, there is a kind of fig in the Middle East which grows in bunches on the tree. This particular fig is associated with the Goddess, to eat of the tree is to partake of the flesh and fluid of the Goddess.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 16 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:45) * 1 lines
how interesting....
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 17 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:46) * 1 lines
and the garden of eden was in egypt if it was at the euphrates river...
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 18 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (18:58) * 4 lines
Discussions only, Wolfie. This is not for pounding belief-systems. We are all struggling up the same mountain toward the same God...we just have tunnel-vision on occasion. *hugs*
John and I agree on this much of Hawaiian cosmogony:...In the beginning there was the sea and the demigod Maui, who rode a dolphin and made ti leaf lasso and pulled the islands up from under the ocean's surface...where he got the ti leaf, we dunno.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 19 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (19:05) * 3 lines
i think it's neat how different cultures express their creation. to me, the stories are different and the same, you know?
(please don't think i was trying to pound my belief, i am open to learn new things)
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 20 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (19:43) * 2 lines
Never, Wolfie! Not from a gentle as a lamb Wolf like you! *hugs*
Where else could there be a ti-leaf rope?! Hawaii did not have anyting but sennet for rope (coconut fiber) and ti leaves are sacred here. All blessings, Christian or not, as done with the sprinkling of water with ti leaves!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 21 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (19:46) * 1 lines
where do ti leaves originate?
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 22 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (19:55) * 2 lines
I think they brought them with the original migratory canoes. If that is so, the place of origin is probably Asia, utimately. None of the Polynesian islands
had their own plants...they had to come from some continental source. Asia is the closest and the islands are in the air and sea currents taking them in that direction.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 23 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:00) * 1 lines
ok, ti leaves, they're the leaves of a dumb cane, right? yup, they're from the dracaena group (usually grown straight up with a bunch of striped leaves at the top, looks like corn). but there are lots of species of dracaena. i believe they are from asia. since he is a demigod, perhaps he was able to procure a few leaves before making hawaii....
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 24 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:09) * 1 lines
Ok, looked it up (when all else fails...) Ti plants are indigenous to Tropical Asia and Australia and realtives of Hawaiian Ti are found in New Zealand. It is in the lily family, which is so big it includes onions!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 25 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:11) * 1 lines
Dumb cane is dieffenbachia and don't get it anywhere near food, eyes, children or animals. Hawaiians use ti leaves to cook in - they bundle meat and veggies into bundles secured with twine and popped into the hot cooking pit with the other food.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 26 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:13) * 1 lines
Going out to dinner and going to pick up a book on Hawaiian creation lore. More tomorrow! Bye for now!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 27 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 13, 2000 (20:13) * 1 lines
yep, i got dumb cane mixed up with the dracaena. dumb cane is definitely poisonous.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 28 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (11:51) * 5 lines
Ti is a relative of dracena. Got that right (and please - never mix up dieffenbachia with ti in real life. Oxalic acid crystals will make your life miserable under those circumstances!
The happy news is that I came home with two books on Hawaiian cosmogony. The first is the creation chant translated from the ancient chants taught to her by her high priestess grandmother by Queen Liliuokalani of Hawaii. The other is by King Kalakaua of Hawaii which covers all of the myths and legends in story form. I will be reading and posting these as soon as I can.
Does anyone have AmerIndian or AustraloAborigines legends or other lore ? In basic information, they seem to agree surprisingly well!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 29 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (17:42) * 25 lines
The Kumulipo: An Hawaiian Creation Myth
THE FIRST AGE
Verse 1
At the time that turned the heat of the earth,
At the time when the heavens turned and changed,'
At the time when the light of the sun was subdued
To cause light to break forth,
At the time of the night of Makalii (winter)
Then began the slime which established the earth,
The source of deepest darkness.
Of the depth of darkness, of the depth of darkness,
Of the darkness of the sun, in the depth of night
It is night,
So was night was born.
Verse 2
Kumulipo was born in the night, a male
Poele was born in the night, a female.
(it continues on to creation of all of the shell-fish worms, sea creatures)
Kane was born to Waiololi, a female to Waiolola.
(seaweeds and grasses created and forests)
It seems not to mention who did the creating. But that is the beginning word for word except for what I put in ( ).
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 30 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:09) * 3 lines
i'm gonna have to go back and do some looking....on the creation story i know. most beliefs are that the redeemer will come back again and in christianity that's the christ, which is why i believe that the creation stories run along the same lines, put into parables that can be understood by the people for whom the story is meant.....
the first age is rather poetic, isn't it?
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 31 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:11) * 1 lines
oh, and the "we" that was being referred to up a bit is God and the angels. angels were with God before the earth was created.....they are in heaven, but the heavens and the earth that were created was the sky and the actual earth...
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 32 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:13) * 1 lines
you know, marcia, your creation of this topic could be a good for my faith, causes me to delve deeper into what i know....you know what i mean?
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 33 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:26) * 3 lines
to put away the belief that we evolved from fish, if you believe in the creation story, the water put forth creatures with which the waters swarm, and the earth to bring cattle, creepy things, and wild animals. (comes from genesis 1:20 and 24)...but if you continue reading, it looks as though one set of animals existed but because there was no one to take care of the earth (i.e., work the land, etc.) the earth was fruitless. so He made man and the garden of eden. saw that man had no one to help him work the earth, brought forth birds and animals of the field. so what if the dinosaurs were the first set of animals and man was created later (as history suggests) and our modern day animals (more or less)....
this is interesting...i'm sitting here delving through genesis like a sleuth (which is what i've never done before)......
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 34 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:27) * 1 lines
oh, and the fish were left alone (including sea monstors, it's there!)
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 35 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:29) * 1 lines
Indeed - it could be good for me, as well. I never knew about the Hawaiian creation story and there is no better authority than the Queen herself (or king) who are actually the repository of the chants and history of the people. Like anointed kings everywhere, it makes them semi-divine!!!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 36 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:33) * 1 lines
i know and they had the forethought to write down their history! for us to learn and marvel over....
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 37 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:33) * 3 lines
I think much is reworked from the original creation story which has been lost and what we have is the rehash of what is remembered when they got around to writing it down....not all that long ago, actually! There is no reason God could not have set up evolution and watched to see the choices made of free will from the very beginning!!
Have you any Native American knowledge of creation?
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 38 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:39) * 1 lines
no, i know they had spirits of the earth and such. you're right about God's method. it is not told how these things were done, why should it be? and evolution is a natural process of adaptation. perhaps not as radical as some would have you believe, i.e., apes and the missing link....you know, i learned in a biology class (college) that darwin was approached by someone who sneered at him that the next thing he would know is that he came from apes. and for some reason, people had hung on to that as truth. but it's not what darwin was theorizing.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 39 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (19:49) * 1 lines
Thank you for saying that. It makes me crazy when people blindly mis-state Darwin's theory. Arrrrrgh! After all, if we are God's creation and He made our brains capable of understanding and thinking complex things (of course He did!)He would expect us to use them as fully as we could as we developed in wisdom and understanding. I would never put limits on God's ingenuity and ability to challenge our intelligence. I have problems with people who do!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 40 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (20:01) * 1 lines
me too! and all this missing link stuff, yes, there's a missing link, because it never happened!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 41 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (20:03) * 1 lines
Yup!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 42 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (20:10) * 1 lines
you know, after that class, i was burning with the desire to get a hold of darwin's book. but being so busy, i've not done it yet. it's on my list though.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 43 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (20:23) * 1 lines
It is a fascinating read - but not a really fast one. It is good to chew on!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 44 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (20:25) * 1 lines
well, all those science books are that way. but they're sooo interesting. i loved to thumb through that biology book (had to, it cost so darned much *wink*)......
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 45 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (21:30) * 1 lines
That is where it benefited me to be married to a college professor. Book dealers could not wait to send me the latest books on thing I was interested in whether or not I was teaching a course in it. I gotta lot of them!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 46 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (23:36) * 1 lines
You were asking about Australian Aboriginal myths - the dreaming time it is called - it is often tied up with the serpent the Woggle (I am not sure how it is spelt)and must be careful not to offend. The stories are now on paper and are often told on the ABC television on a Saturday evening at 6.50 just before the news. Some of the stories are fascinating - and once again the myth of creation of man comes in. It is interesting how a snake or serpent comes into so many of the creation stories. Most of the dreaming time stories have a good moral to them - and have been told hand to mouth over 40,000 years. Unfortunately I am not too clued up on them - and as I said before would not offend Aboriginal culture by saying too much. Ideally what's needed is someone on line who knows far more than I. The dreaming time concept is different I think to other cultures, especially the amount of years it has been told over and over again.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 47 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Mar 14, 2000 (23:47) * 1 lines
Thank you, Anne. I was thinking the same thing about Hawaiian creation myths but no one ventured forth, so I used the highest source I could possibly find - their Queen and High Priestess (even though Christianized) Let's hope other ethnic groups volunteer their creation stories.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 48 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (17:18) * 44 lines
Maggie originally posted this information in Travel Conference under Mali
Dogon Theory of Creation
The Dogon people are an indigeous tribe who occupy a region in Mali, south of the Sahara Desert in Africa.
They live in the Homburi Mountains near Timbuktu.
They are believed to be of Egyptian descent.
After living in Libya for a time, they settled in Mali, West Africa, bringing with them astronomy legends dating from before
3200 BCE.
In the late 1940s, four of their priests told two French anthropologists of a secret Dogon myths about the star Sirius (8.6
light years from the earth). The priests said that Sirius had a companion star that was invisible to the human eye. They also
stated that the star moved in a 50-year elliptical orbit around Sirius, that it was small and incredibly heavy, and that it
rotated on its axis.
Sirius - which we now call Sirius A - was not seen through a telescope until 1862 and was not photographed until 1970.
The Dogon name for Sirius B (Po Tolo) consists of the word for star (tolo) and "po," the name of the smallest seed known
to them. By this name they describe the star's smallness -- it is, they say, "the smallest thing there is." They also claim that
it is "the heaviest star," and white. The Dogon thus attribute to Sirius B its three principle properties as a white dwarf:
small, heavy, white.
They go on to say that it has an is elliptical orbit, with Sirius A at one foci of the ellipse (as it is), that the orbital period is 50
years (the actual figure is 50.04 +/- 0.09 years), and that the star rotates on its own axis (it does). The Dogon also describe
a third star in the Sirius system, called "Emme Ya" ("Sorghum Female"). In orbit around this star, they say, is a single
satellite. To date, Emme Ya has not been identified by astronomers.
In addition to their knowledge of Sirius B, the Dogon mythology includes Saturn's rings, and Jupiter's four major moons.
They have four calendars, for the Sun, Moon, Sirius, and Venus, and have long known that planets orbit the sun.
The Dogon say their astronomical knowledge was given to them by the Nommos, amphibious beings sent to Earth from
Sirius for the benefit of mankind. The name comes from a Dogon word meaning "to make one drink," and the Nommos
are also called Masters of the Water, the Monitors, and the Teachers.
Nommos
The Dogon tells the legend of the Nommos, awful-looking beings who arrived in a vessel along with fire and thunder.
After they arrived here - they put out a reservoir of water onto the Earth then dove into the water.
There are references in the oral traditions, drawings and cuneiform tablets of the Dogons, to human looking beings who
have feet but who are portrayed as having a large fish skin running down their bodies.
The Nommos were more fishlike than human, and had to live in water. They were saviors and spiritual guardians: "The
Nommo divided his body among men to feed them; that is why it is also said that as the universe "had drunk of his body,"
the Nommo also made men drink. He gave all his life principles to human beings."
The Nommo was crucified and resurrected and in the future will again visit the Earth, this time in human form. Later he will
assume his amphibious form and will rule the world from the waters.
Dogon mythology is known only by a number of their priests, and is a complex system of knowledge. Such carefully
guarded secrets would not be divulged to friendly strangers very easily. If the star Emme Ya is eventually discovered in the
Sirius system, this would give considerably weight to the Dogon's story.
The Nommos, who could live on land but dwelled mostly in the sea, were part fish, like merfolk (mermaids and mermen).
Similar creatures have been noted in other ancient civilizations -- Babylonia's Oannes, Acadia's Ea, Sumer's Enki, and
Egypt's goddess Isis. It was from the Nommos that the Dogon claimed their knowledge of the heavens.
The Dogon also claimed that a third star (Emme Ya) existed in the Sirius system. Larger and lighter than Sirius B, this star
revolved around Sirius as well. And around it orbited a planet from which the Nommos came. (Sirius A).
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 49 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Wed, Mar 15, 2000 (23:26) * 1 lines
so again - something like the Nephalim in the Bible. Fascinating isn't it. There are some strange pictures in the far North West of Western Australia of men with what looks like space suits and helmets on - I believe they are very old. Has anyone else more information on these.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 50 of 192: MarkG (MarkG) * Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (03:16) * 3 lines
Is it too implausible (or downright cheeky) to speculate that the four Dogon priests in the 1940s had got hold of some astronomical information, and wove their own culture's "creation story" around it? Just to impress the researchers...
Yours sceptically
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 51 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (10:02) * 1 lines
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 52 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Thu, Mar 16, 2000 (10:07) * 1 lines
Given the remoteness of that area then,and what I know so far of the character of the people - you suggestion seems reasonably implausible. Not that it hasn't been conisidered, and we have to remember the humanity of the researchers and what they got out of the publication! if I find out more I'll let you know.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 53 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (03:18) * 15 lines
This is what I've come up with so far. (Wolfie - this is on your head!!! *grin*)
From New international Version Study Bible
Genesis
Chapters 1-38 reflect a good deal of what we know from other sources about ancient Mesopotamian life and culture, creation, genealogies, destructive floods, geography and map making. Construction techniques, migration of peoples, sale and purchase of land, legal customs and procedures, sheep and cattle farming – all these subjects and many others were matters of vital concern to the peoples of Mesopotamia during this time.
The closest ancient literary parallels to Genesis 1-38 also come from Mesopotamia. Enuma elion, the story of the god Marduk’s rise to supremacy in the Babylonian pantheon, is similar in some respects to the Genesis 1 creation account. Some of the features of certain king lists from Sumer bear striking resemblance to the genealogy of Genesis 5. The eleventh tablet of the Gilgamesh epic is quite similar in outline to the flood narrative in Genesis 6-8. Several of the major events of Genesis 1-8 are narrated in the same order as similar events in the Atrahasis epic. In fact, the latter features the same basic motif of creation – rebellion – flood as the biblical account. Clay tablets found recently at the ancient ( c2500-2300 BC) site of Ebla (modern Tell Mardikh) in northern Syria may also contain some intriguing parallels.
Genesis is divided into 10 main sections each beginning with the word ‘account’ (2:2; 5:1; 6:9; 10:1; 11:10; 11:27; 25:12; 25:19; 36:1 repeated for emphasis at 36:9 and 37:2). The first 5 sections (1:1-11:26) can be grouped together and along with the introduction to the book as a whole 1:1-2:3) can be appropriately called ‘primeval history’.
From Berkhof 1971, Systematic Theology
Genesis 2 is not and does not pretend to be a narrative of creation. The superscription eleh toledoth which is found ten times in Genesis never refers to the birth or origin of things but refers to its history. The expression dates from a time when history still consisted of the description of generations. The second chapter of Genesis begins the description of the history of man, arranged its materials also to suit this purpose, and only repeats so much of what was said in the previous chapter without any consideration of chronological order as necessary for the author’s purpose.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 54 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (10:20) * 1 lines
maggie, i'm glad you posted this!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 55 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (15:05) * 44 lines
Kramer's Translation of a Gilgamesh Prologue
This passage, as understood and translated by Samuel Kramer, would include the
oldest known reference to Lilith.
The translation is from Kramer38:1f
After heaven and earth had been separated
and mankind had been created,
after Anûum, Enlil and Ereskigal had taken posesssion
of heaven, earth and the underworld;
after Enki had set sail for the underworld
and the sea ebbed and flowed in honor of its lord;
on this day, a huluppu tree
which had been planted on the banks of the Euphrates
and nourished by its waters
was uprooted by the south wind
and carried away by the Euphrates.
A goddess who was wandering among the banks
siezed the swaying tree
And -- at the behest of Anu and Enlil --
brought it to Inanna's garden in Uruk.
Inanna tended the tree carefully and lovingly
she hoped to have a throne and a bed
made for herself from its wood.
After ten years, the tree had matured.
But in the meantime, she found to her dismay
that her hopes could not be fulfilled.
because during that time
a dragon had built its nest at the foot of the tree
the Zu-bird was raising its young in the crown,
and the demon Lilith had built her house in the middle.[1]
But Gilgamesh, who had heard of Inanna's plight,
came to her rescue.
He took his heavy shield
killed the dragon with his heavy bronze axe,
which weighed seven talents and seven minas.
Then the Zu-bird flew into the mountains
with its young,
while Lilith, petrified with fear,
tore down her house and fled into the wilderness
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/gilgamesh.html
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 56 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (15:07) * 135 lines
Here's another one to consider:
Ra and the Serpent
Egyptian myth of creation
Introduction and paraphrase prepared by Angelo Salvo
Ra the Sun, the Supreme Lord of Egypt, the great Neb-er- tcher, spoke these
words after appearing:
I am the one who came into being as Khepri the Lifegiver!
I was the creator of all forms of life which now exist,
I was the first one to emerge from primeval matter,
After I appeared all forms of life eventually appeared for the first time,
Just after I appeared I was alone and I raised up my hand,
For neither heaven nor earth existed, and there weren't
any plants or dry land or reptiles in Egypt.
Then, I spoke and living creatures arose from out of Nun
the primeval sea. I put all the creatures back to a
state of rest in Nun so I could find a place to stand.
I made up a plan of creation in my heart, and I started
my work by laying a foundation in Egypt. I designed
every living creature by myself. I was still alone, for
I had not exhaled Shu the Wind and I had not spat Tefnut
the Rain. I wanted to have a multitude of living
creatures-I wanted then to reproduce so they had children and grandchildren
In order to do that, I formed a physical union with my
fist. I masturbated with my own hand, and I ejaculated
the seed into my own mouth. I exhaled Shu the Wind and
spat Tefnut the Rain. Old Man Nun, my father, raised Shu
and Tefnut and my Eye, an overseer, looked after them
during the times when I was away. Old Man Nun told me:
"At first, you Ra the Sun were the only god who existed.
Two other gods have emerged from you-so now there are
three. Though you appeared on dry earth, Shu and Tefnut
play together in Nun the primeval sea." Shu and Tefnut
brought me the Eye that looked after them, and I gathered
with them and wept for joy. Human beings emerged from the tears that I shed.
Eye the Overseer was angry with me for replacing it with
Eye the Glorious. As a sincere apology to my Eye, I made
Eye the Overseer a place of honor by making him the ruler
of all Egypt. The Eye's tears of anger became tears of
joy, and with Eye's tears of joy I created all the
Reptiles and their companions, and I created plants and bushes as well.
Afterward, Shu the Wind and Tefnut the Rain gave birth
to Geb the Earth and Nut the Sky. Geb and Nut gave birth
to the brothers Osiris and Seth and their wives Isis and
Nepthys. Osiris and Isis had a son named Horus-khent-an-
maati, who was the Sun God. One was born right after
another from Geb the Earth, and they then gave birth to
the people of Egypt who multiplied and fluorished.
COMMENTARY
There is, to some extent, a cross-influence between the Old Testament story of
creation and the story of "Ra and the Serpent". Like the beginning of the
ancient Hebrew story of creation, the Egyptian story of creation begins with
the Supreme Lord being all by himself in a dark void without even the Earth,
the Sky, or the seas. However, in many specific details the Egyptian creation
story does not follow the same route as the Old Testament. In the story "Ra and
the Serpent", Ra does not directly create the earth(land) or the sky as the
Hebrew god does after creating Day and Night, or Light and Darkness. The
Egyptians assigned a wide diversity of gods and goddesses to such basic
phenomena as the sky, earth, and seas. Ra produced Geb and Nut, the earth and
the sky, indirectly through the wind deity Shu and the rain deity Tefnut. There
is a difference between the Egyptian story and the Hebrew story in the way
vegetation was created. In the Egyptian tale, Ra created vegetation directly
through the tears of Eye the Overseer. However, in the Old Testament, the one
and only God created vegetation indirectly by empowering mother earth to do so.
The Old Testament story is more specific than the Egyptian story in its
detailing of the creation of land creatures. The Egyptian merely talks about
the creation of reptiles and all related creatures or companions through the
tears of Eye.
In the Hebrew tale, God first created fish to live in the waters and birds to
fly in the sky. On a separate occasion, the Hebrew god produced all sorts of
cattle and wild animals that roamed the earth, including things like reptiles,
snakes, insects, and rodents. Afterward, God according to Hebrew tradition
created humankind in his image with the intention of making them pre-eminent to
all other living creatures. God's creation according to Hebrew tradition
occured step by step and every detail was made on purpose. Although Ra did make
up a schematic plan of creation in the Egyptian tale, the various steps of
creation did not occur on purpose. The creation of living creatures in the
Egyptian tradition occured more in line with spontanuity than Ra's plans. For
example, human beings in Egypt were a result of the tears Ra shed when he wept
for joy at being united with Shu and Tefnut. Ra spontaneously began to create
reptiles, other wild animals, and vegetation when Eye the Oversser began to
weep tears of joy at being made the ruler of all Egypt.
Another fundamental difference between the Old Testament story of creation and
the Egyptian story of creation regards the creator's attitude and expectations
of his human creations. In the Egyptian tale, humans were nto directly created
by the Creator god, but instead they came forth from Geb the Earth god. Ra had
no intention or at least no directly-stated or implied attitude that humans
must be preeminent over all living creatures. For example, scarab beetles and
cats were wor- shipped as deities in ancient Egyptian traditions. In the Old
Testament traditions, human beings looked on all animals wild or tame as being
inferior and subservient to them. Also, in the Egyptian tradition, the god Ra
did not have a directly-stated high moral expectation of humans the way the
Hebrew god did. When Adam and Eve committed their original sin by eating an
apple from the forbidden tree, God supposedly punished them by no longer making
their lives a paradise. The Egyptian tale makes no indication that mankind is
oriented to sin or that mankind has disappointed the gods. In fact, the
Egyptian creation tale asserts that mankind is obedient and faithful to God
because it states that "they invoke my name, they overthrow their enemies, they
create words of power for the overthrow of evil [Apep]"(Budge 320). Hence,
although the Hebrew tale does show some influence from the Egyptian tale
through its basic depiction of an all-powerful creator god, the Hebrew tale
goes in many different directions.
In both the Hebrew and the Egyptian creation tales, the narrator of the story
is the creator god himself. The creator god depicts in detail what has happened
and what he experienced. On occasion, the creator god in the Egyptian tale
speaks of feeling such joy at being reunited with Shu and Tefnut that he wept
tears and from those tears human beings emerged. In the Hebrew tale, the Lord
becmae angry when he learned that Adam found out he was naked from the tree of
wisdom. In both creation tales, the addresses are the people who worship in
that religion and those gods. One thing that the Hebrew and Egyptian traditions
had in common was that they both had creation myths which were essentially
believed by all to be the way the world began.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Matthews, Victor & Benjamin, Don. Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories
from the Ancient Near East. New York: Paulist Press, 1991. Pp. 28-31.
Shafer, Byron E. Religion in Ancient Egypt. 1991. Cornell University Press.
Ithaca and London. pg.115.
Budge, E.A. Wallis. The Gods of the Egyptians or Studies in Egyptian Mythology.
1969 edition. Dover Publications, Inc. New York. pp.308-321.
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/StudTxts/raSerpnt.html
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 57 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (20:13) * 1 lines
both of these passages provoke thought. thanks, maggie. i wish those scholars would speak in layman's terms so sillies like myself can really grasp what they're saying!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 58 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (20:24) * 124 lines
Perhaps that is the way they cover their back sides...if they understood it better they would not have to use such a high fog index. Gonna post a long one from Maggie, who was afraid it was too long to post - but I'm gonna do it as it is really interesting! Part 1
The Atra-hasis Epichttp://www.biblicalresource.com/texts/atrahasis.html
Tablet I
The gods have been assigned hard labor for the major gods in the Babylonian
pantheon. After bickering and complaining, they rebel. As a concession to the
lesser gods, humans are created. We pick up the narrative just after the
rebellion.
"Every single one of the gods
160together, we have declared war
We placed....in the excavation
The excessive labor killed us.
Our work was heavy, the difficulty great
So every single one of the gods
165have brought the complaint against Enlil.
When he heard that word
His tears flowed
Enlil....his word
He addresses the hero Anu:
170"Noble One, carry your authority
take your power with you to heaven.
The Anunnaki dwell before you.
Call one god, and let him be thrown to death."
Anu speaks, and
175Addresses the gods, his brothers:
"What are we charging them with?
Their work was heavy, their distress great
Daily....
The lamentation was heavy, we heard the noise!
180..................................to do
........................................the assigned task
Fragment K 8562 (S), ii.
1.............................................
Òlet me....................................
you.........................................
take........................................
5The Anunnaki sit before you
Beleti, the birth goddess is present.
Summon one and throw him to death."
Anu opens his mouth, he speaks, he addresses:
"Nusku, open your gate, take your weapons.
10Bow down in the assembly of the great gods.
Speak to them......
'Anu, your father, has sent me
Your advisor, the hero, Enlil.....'"
Fragment BM 78257 (G) ii
1Ea used his mouth and
addressed the gods, his brothers:
"Why are we laying the charge on them?
Their work is heavy, the distress is great
5Daily.......................................................
The lamentation was heavy.....
There is......................................................
Beleti, the birth goddess sits
Let her create Lulla-man
10Let him bear the yoke
Let man carry the hod of the gods.
Fragment K 6634 (v): Obverse
1The mistress of the gods, The Womb, is here
Let The Womb create Lullu
Let the human carry the toil of the gods
Let here create Lullu-humanity
5Let it bear the yoke
Let it bear the yoke
Tablet I
(While) Belet-Ili, The Womb, is present
190Let The Womb put down here, let her create, so that
humanity may carry the toil of the gods."
They summoned and asked the goddess,
The Midwife of the gods, Wise Mami,
" You are The Womb, the creatress of humanity.
195Create Lullu, that they might carry the yoke.
Let them carry the yoke, the assigned task of Enlil
The toil of the god Enlil let humanity carry."
Nintu used her mouth
And addresses the great gods:
200"It is not right for me alone to do.
With Enki, too, there is a task at hand.
He alone can purity everything.
Let him give me the clay, that I may act."
Enki used his mouth
205And addresses the great gods.
"On the first, seventh and fifteenth day of the month
I will institute a purifying bath.
Let one god be slaughtered
And let the gods be cleansed by immersion.
210From his flesh and blood
Let Nintu mix the clay
That god and humanity may be mixed
all together in the clay.
For all future days may we hear the drum.
215Let there be a ghost ( etemmu) in the flesh of the god
Let it proclaim a living one as its sign
Let the etemmu remain, that we might not forget."
In the great assembly, they answered "Yes!"
The great Anunnaki
220Who are in charge of destinies.
On the first, seventh, and fifteenth day of the month
He established a purifying bath.
We-ila, the god who had intelligence
in their assembly, they slaughtered.
225From his flesh and his blood,
Nintu mixed the clay.
For all future days they heard the drum.
The etemmu was in the flesh of the god
It proclaimed the living one as its sign
230The etemmu existed, to prevent forgetting.
When the two of them had mixed that clay
She summoned the Anunnaki, the great gods,
The Igigi, the great gods
Threw spit upon the clay.
235Mami used her mouth,
And addresses the great gods:
"You assigned me a task
And I completed it.
You slaughtered the god with its intelligence.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 59 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sat, Mar 18, 2000 (20:28) * 133 lines
A secod part - it is too long to post in entirety but do see the rest at the url given in the posting above.
240I have caused your heavy labor to be removed
I have imposed your toil on humanity.
You have raised a cry for humanity
I have loosed the yoke; I have established freedom."
They heard this speech of hers.
245They ran free and kissed her feet.
"Previously, we called you Mami.
Now let your name be Mistress-Of-All-The-Gods!"
They entered the house of destiny
250Prince Ea and Wise Mami.
The birth goddess assembled
The wombs trampled the clay in her presence.
She kept on reciting the incantation.
Ea, seated before her, was prompting her
255When she finished her incantation
She pinched off 14 nips of clay
Seven pieces on the right,
And seven pieces on the left, she put.
Between them she put the brick
260..................the umbilical cord.
Fragments K3399 and 3934
Prince Ea spoke.
He was prompting her.
She recited the spell. After she recited her spell
She put out her hand upon her clay.
5Fourteen pieces she nipped off, seven pieces on the right she put,
Seven pieces on the left, she set; between them she put the brick.
A reed-sliver of a swamp-reed that severs the umbilical cord, she opened toward it
She summoned the wise and the learned.
Seven and Seven Wombs. Seven were creating males
10Seven were creating females.
The Womb, the Creatress of destiny
They were covering them in pairs,
They were covering them in pairs before her
...............................................................
15In the house of the women giving birth
Seven days let the brick be placed....
Tablet I
...........................................her breasts
...........................................beard
......................................cheek of the young man
275..................................open air shrine and street
.........................................wife and husband
The wombs were gathered
And Nintu sat
Counting the months.
280....................of destiny. They summoned the tenth month
The tenth month came
The palu was inserted, the womb opened
Her joyful face was beaming
She covered her head
285She performed the midwifery.
She girded her loins; she pronounces the blessing.
She made a drawing in the flour, and she put the brick in place
"I myself have created, with my own two hands I have done it.
290Let the midwife rejoice in the house of the qadishtu-prostitute
Where the mother gives birth.
The mother of the babe
Gives birth on her own.
Let the brick be put in place for nine days;
295Let Nintu, The Womb, be honored.
May they call out 'Mami.'
Let them praise The Womb,
May they praise Kesh.
When the bed is set
300Let Husband and wife
At the time of marriage
Let Ishtar rejoice in the house.....
Let rejoicing be established for nine days.
Let Ishtar be called Ishhara
In the destined moment......"
Lines 306-327 are too broken to translate.
man
cleanse the dwelling
330The son to his father
They sat and
He was carrying
He saw and
335Enlil
They held each other
They made new hoes and spades
They built the large canal ditches
For the hunger of the people
For the sustenance of the gods
Lines 340 to 351 are badly broken
1200 years had not come
The people became numerous, the people multiplied
The people were crying out like a bull
355The god became disturbed by their din
Enlil hears their noise
And addresses the great gods:
"The noise of humanity has become burdensome to me
I am deprived of sleep because of their din.
360Let there be chills
......................... their
"
And he, Atra-hasis
365was bringing a report to Enki, his god.
He spoke with his god
And his god spoke with him.
Atra-hasis used his mouth
And addresses his lord:
370"How long
And how long will they impose sickness on us?"
Enki used his mouth and
Addresses his slave:
"Call the elders, the seniors.
375Bring them together in the house of counsel.
Command, and let the heralds proclaim—
Let them make a loud cry in the land—
'Do not revere your gods;
Do not pray to your goddesses.
380Seek the gate of Namtara
Bring a baked loaf to him.
Let the flour offering come to him.
Let him be put to shame by the gift,
That he might take away his hand (i.e., the plague)' "
385Atra-hasis agreed to the command
And gathered the elders to his gate.
Atra-hasis used his mouth
And addressed the elders:
"O Elders, O Seniors.
My master said to me, in his temple:
'Command the heralds to proclaim—
Let them make a loud cry in the land!—
"Do not revere your gods;
Do not pray to your goddesses.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 60 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (04:21) * 1 lines
Do you want me to try and decipher what I think those other guys were saying. I'm not too bad at translating academic speak. BTW Marcia did you notice they're U. Penn lecture notes!!!!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 61 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (11:14) * 1 lines
you know what i find interesting in all this? the number 7. it seems that most theories attribute something with the number 7, just like in christianity.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 62 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (11:14) * 1 lines
maggie, decipher away!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 63 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (12:29) * 1 lines
Yes, Please!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 64 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (13:33) * 1 lines
OK but be patient. gotta do some work tomorrow for £££s
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 65 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (14:50) * 1 lines
Yes Ma'am...!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 66 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Sun, Mar 19, 2000 (18:07) * 1 lines
oh yes, go get paid first! *grin*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 67 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (11:58) * 31 lines
i got this in the mail from a friend and am going to post it here. if it's not appropriate, please scribble!
*****
One day in the Garden of Eden, Eve calls out to God...
"Lord, I have a problem!"
"What's the problem, Eve?"
"Lord, I know you've created me and have provided this
beautiful garden and all of these wonderful animals,
and that hilarious comic snake, but I'm just not happy."
"Why is that, Eve?" came the reply from above.
"Lord, I am lonely. And I'm sick to death of apples."
"Well, Eve, in that case, I have a solution. I shall create a man for
you."
"What's a 'man,' Lord?"
"This man will be a flawed creature, with many bad
traits. He'll give you a hard time. But, he'll be
bigger, faster, and will like to hunt and kill things.
He'll be witless and will revel in childish things like
fighting and kicking a ball about. He won't be too
smart, so he'll also need your advice to think properly.
"Sounds great," says Eve, with an ironically raised
eyebrow. "What's the catch, Lord?"
"Yeah, well ... you can have him on one condition.
"What's that, Lord?"
"As I said, he'll be proud, arrogant, and
self-admiring...So you'll have to let him believe that
I made him first...So, just remember it's our
secret... Woman-to-woman!"
**************
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 68 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (12:54) * 1 lines
Totally appropriate, and I think I know who your friend is =) I love that!!!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 69 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:03) * 1 lines
no, it was from a co-worker *grin*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 70 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:04) * 1 lines
now that i think about it, i believe i've received several copies of this poem but when i got it at work, i thought, this would be perfect for geomyth....
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 71 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:14) * 1 lines
I also posted it in Screwed when mine arrived last week.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 72 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:16) * 1 lines
It IS perfect for here - I just did not think of it! Thanks, Wolfie *hugs*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 73 of 192: Wolf (wolf) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:26) * 1 lines
well, just to keep the mood in check. this is a very heavy topic! *hugs back atcha*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 74 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:41) * 1 lines
Good idea - there are already too many people afraid of this conference because it "sounds" so serious. They should see some of the Jewelry stuff! Nothing gets Karen out of drool quicker than posting in Geo 8 or 18...*grin*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 75 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:46) * 1 lines
If were so serious I couldn't be posting here.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 76 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (18:50) * 1 lines
Thanks, Cheryl - but you'd be amazed/appalled/incredulous over how many people have said that about Geo without ever reading anything. The just look at the topic titles and run screaming back to Drool. I shoulda made them more sensational sounding than I did...*sigh*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 77 of 192: Cheryl (CherylB) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (19:02) * 1 lines
What could be more sensational than the Earth, the weather, and the solar system. Not to mention mythology. The "Epic of Gilgamesh" is the oldest written story, and a lot of stories still borrow from it.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 78 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (19:38) * 1 lines
Indeed! That's what I thought when a conference of my chosing was offered to me. Imagine the nerve I must have had taking on the entire Earth! Like Topsy, it grewed from there. I am delighted you find it as enthralling as I do!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 79 of 192: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (20:07) * 2 lines
Dearest Marcianess, please include me as an enthralled one. ;-)
I like all your topics and I do catch up on them. I am very busy right now and peek when I can. Blesings to you.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 80 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Mar 20, 2000 (20:15) * 1 lines
Oooh, Yes! Thanks for that, Moon! Please feel free to wander around and post when the spirit moves you and you have the time. (Yippee!)
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 81 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Apr 3, 2000 (16:17) * 86 lines
http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/loreindx.html
Yellowstone Valley and the Great Flood
Cheyenne Native American Lore
"I have heard it told on the Cheyenne Reservation in Montana and the Seminole camps in the
Florida Everglades, I have heard it from the Eskimos north of the Arctic Circle and the Indians
south of the equator. The legend of the flood is the most universal of all legends. It is told in Asia,
Africa, and Europe, in North America and the South Pacific." Professor Hap Gilliland of Eastern
Montana College was the first to record this legend of the great flood.
This is one of the fifteen legends of the flood that he himself recorded in various parts of the
world:
He was an old Indian. his face was weather beaten, but his eyes were still bright. I never knew
what tribe he was from, though I could guess. Yet others from the tribe whom I talked to later had
never heard his story.
We had been talking of the visions of the young men. He sat for a long time, looking out across
the Yellowstone Valley through the pouring rain, before he spoke. "They are beginning to come
back," he said.
"Who is coming back?" I asked.
"The animals," he said. "It has happened before."
"Tell me about it.'
He thought for a long while before he lifted his hands and his eyes. "The Great Spirit smiled on
this land when he made it. There were mountains and plains, forests and grasslands. There were
animals of many kinds--and men."
The old man's hands moved smoothly, telling the story more clearly than his voice.
The Great Spirit told the people, "These animals are your brothers. Share the land with them.
They will give you food and clothing. Live with them and protect them.
"Protect especially the buffalo, for the buffalo will give you food and shelter. The hide of the
buffalo will keep you from the cold, from the heat, and from the rain. As long as you have the
buffalo, you will never need to suffer."
For many winters the people lived at peace with the animals and with the land. When they killed a
buffalo, they thanked the Great Spirit, and they used every part of the buffalo. It took care of every
need.
Then other people came. They did not think of the animals as brothers. They killed, even when
they did not need food. They burned and cut the forests, and the animals died. They shot the
buffalo and called it sport. They killed the fish in the streams.
When the Great Spirit looked down, he was sad. He let the smoke of the fires lie in the valleys.
The people coughed and choked. But still they burned and they killed.
So the Great Spirit sent rains to put out the fires and to destroy the people.
The rains feil, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded valleys to the higher land.
Spotted Bear, the medicine man, gathered together his people. He said to them, "The Great Spirit
has told us that as long as we have the buffalo we will be safe from heat and cold and rain. But
there are no longer any buffalo. Unless we can find buffalo and live at peace with nature, we will
all die."
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded plains to the hills.
The young men went out and hunted for the buffalo. As they went they put out the fires. They
made friends with the animals once more. They cleaned out the streams.
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded hills to the mountains.
Two young men came to Spotted Bear. "We have found the buffalo," they said. "There was a
cow, a calf, and a great white bull. The cow and the calf climbed up to the safety of the mountains.
They should be back when the rain stops. But the bank gave way, and the bull was swept away
by the floodwaters. We followed and got him to shore, but he had drowned. We have brought you
his hide."
They unfolded a huge white buffalo skin.
Spotted Bear took the white buffalo hide. "Many people have been drowned," he said. "Our food
has been carried away. But our young people are no longer destroying the world that was
created for them. They have found the white buffalo. It will save those who are left."
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded mountains to the
highest peaks.
Spotted Bear spread the white buffalo skin on the ground. He and the other medicine men
scraped it and stretched it, and scraped it and stretched it.
Still the rains fell. Like all rawhide, the buffalo skin stretched when it was wet. Spotted Bear
stretched it out over the village. All the people who were left crowded under it.
As the rains fell, the medicine men stretched the buffalo skin across the mountains. Each day
they stretched it farther.
Then Spotted Bear tied one corner to the top of the Big Horn Mountains. That side, he fastened to
the Pryors. The next corner he tied to the Bear Tooth Mountains. Crossing the Yellowstone
Valley, he tied one corner to the Crazy Mountains, and the other to Signal Butte in the Bull
Mountains.
The whole Yellowstone Valley was covered by the white buffalo skin. Though the rains still fell
above, it did not fall in the Yellowstone Valley.
The waters sank away. Animals from the outside moved into the valley, under the white buffalo
skin. The people shared the valley with them.
Still the rains fell above the buffalo skin. The skin stretched and began to sag.
Spotted Bear stood on the Bridger Mountains and raised the west end of the buffalo skin to catch
the West Wind. The West Wind rushed in and was caught under the buffalo skin. The wind lifted
the skin until it formed a great dome over the valley.
The Great Spirit saw that the people were living at peace with the earth. The rains stopped, and
the sun shone. As the sun shone on the white buffalo skin, it gleamed with colours of red and
yellow and blue.
As the sun shone on the rawhide, it began to shrink. The ends of the dome shrank away until all
that was left was one great arch across the valley.
The old man's voice faded away; but his hands said "Look," and his arms moved toward the
valley.
The rain had stopped and a rainbow arched across the Yellowstone Valley. A buffalo calf and its
mother grazed beneath it.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 82 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (00:20) * 1 lines
That is most interesting - when we visited the great rift valley in Israel we found in the strata, sea shells etc. The guide told us it came from the great flood. As I think I mentioned before there is proof of a great inland sea in Australia. I wonder if the aboriginals have a dreaming time story about it. The flood seems almost universal doesn't it.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 83 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (00:48) * 1 lines
Indeed, seemingly every culture has creation, flood, fall and end of time stories with all sorts of fun things (romping gods and goddesses for example)mixed in. There are many more on that Cherokee lore site which I will post as they come up.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 84 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (06:59) * 1 lines
Marcia that would be most interesting. When we travelling from Seattle to San Francisco on a greyhound bus! We had a most interesting time talking to a Cherokee Indian lass who gave us quite a lot of info about Cherokee folklore - much of which sadly I have forgotten so I shall look forward to what you have to say.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 85 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (12:50) * 1 lines
Thanks, Anne...it just might jog your memory as I post them....or you could go to the website (oddly located here in Hawaii) which is probably not as much fun as reading in here *smiling hopefully*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 86 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (21:28) * 1 lines
Sadly mostly what I remember is learning some of the language and the treatment they received much like the Aborigines here. The stories - I will not try to tell them cause I can't remember enough to be accurate.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 87 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (22:05) * 1 lines
They must be available on the net. Gonna check and report back.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 88 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, Apr 4, 2000 (22:08) * 69 lines
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~reed/global/baiame.html
The First Men and Women - an Australian Aboriginal Legend
AND again like the Lord God, Baiame walked on the earth he had made, among the plants and
animals, and created man and woman to rule over them. He fashioned them from the dust of the
ridges, and said,
'These are the plants you shall eat--these and these, but not the animals I have created.'
Having set them in a good place, the All-Father departed.
To the first man and woman, children were born and to them in turn children who enjoyed the
work of the hands of Baiame. His world had begun to be populated, and men and women
praised Baiame for providing for all their needs. Sun and rain brought life to the plants that
provided their sustenance.
All was well in the world they had received from the bountiful provider, until a year when the rain
ceased to fall. There was little water. The flowers failed to fruit, leaves fell from the dry, withered
stems, and there was hunger in the land--a new and terrifying experience for men, women, and
little children who had never lacked for food and drink.
In desperation a man killed some of the forbidden animals, and shared the kangaroo-rats he
had caught with his wife. They offered some of the flesh to one of their friends but, remembering
Baiame's prohibition, he refused it. The man was ill with hunger. They did their best to persuade
him to eat, but he remained steadfast in his refusal. At length, wearying of their importunity, he
staggered to his feet, turning his back on the tempting food, and walked away.
Shrugging their shoulders, the husband and wife went on with their meal. Once they were
satisfied, they thought again of their friend and wondered whether they could persuade him to
eat. Taking the remains of the meal with them, they followed his trail. It led across a broad plain
and disappeared at the edge of a river. They wondered how he had crossed it and, more
importantly, how they themselves could cross. In spite of the fact that it had dwindled in size,
owing to the prolonged drought, it was running too swiftly for them to wade or swim.
They could see him, some little distance away on the farther side, lying at the foot of a tall gum
tree. They were on the point of turning back when they saw a coal-black figure, half man half
beast, dropping from the branches of the tree and stooping over the man who was lying there.
They shouted a warning, but were too far away for him to hear, even if he were awake. The
black monster picked up the inert body, carried it up into the branches and disappeared. They
could only think that the tree trunk was hollow and that the monster had retreated to its home
with his lifeless burden.
One event succeeded another with bewildering rapidity. A puff of smoke billowed from the tree.
The two frightened observers heard a rending sound as the tree lifted itself from the ground, its
roots snapping one by one, and soared across the river, rising as it took a course to the south.
As it passed by they had a momentary glimpse of two large, glaring eyes within its shadow, and
two white cockatoos with frantically flapping wings, trying to catch up with the flying tree,
straining to reach the shelter of its branches.
Within minutes the tree, the cockatoos, and the glaring eyes had dwindled to a speck, far to the
south, far above their heads.
For the first time since creation, death had come to one of the men whom Baiame had created,
for the monster within the tree trunk was Yowee, the Spirit of Death.
In the desolation of a drought-stricken world, all living things mourned because a man who was
alive was now as dead as the kangaroo-rats that had been killed for food. Baiame's intention
for the men and animals he loved had been thwarted. 'The swamp oak trees sighed incessantly,
the gum trees shed tears of blood, which crystallised as red gum,' wrote Roland Robinson, in
relating this legend of the Kamilroi tribe in his book Wandjina.* 'To this day,' he continued, 'to
the tribes of that part is the Southern Cross known as "Yaraandoo"--the place of the White Gum
tree--and the Pointers as "Mouyi", the white cockatoos.'
It was a sad conclusion to the hopes of a world in the making, but the bright cross of the
Southern Cross is a sign to men that there is a place for them in the limitless regions of space,
the home of the All-Father himself, and that beyond death lies a new creation.
* Lansdowne Press.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 89 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Wed, Apr 5, 2000 (01:47) * 1 lines
That is amazing - not so very different from the Biblical version. Thank you - its most interesting to read these different myths and compare them. I can almost hear the soft aboriginal accent of someone reading it.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 90 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Apr 5, 2000 (12:49) * 1 lines
There are more out there, but this was the first one I came upon. I shall look up more. I was actually looking for the origin of the Earth myth. It seems that many cultures understood that it was always here.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 91 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Thu, Apr 13, 2000 (09:59) * 22 lines
This Aboriginal dreaming from Bruce Chatwin's book The Songlines, pages 80-82
IN THE BEGINNING
In the Beginning the Earth was an infinite and murky plain, separated from the sky and from the grey salt sea and smothered in a shadowy twilight. There were nejiher Sun nor Moon nor Stars. Yet, far away, lived the Sky-dwellers: youthfully indifferent beings, human in form but with the feet of emus, their golden hair glit-tering like spiders’ webs in the sunset, ageless and unageing, having existed for ever in their green, well-watered Paradise beyond the Western Clouds.
On the surface of the Earth, the only features were certain hollows which would, one day, be waterholes. There were no animals and no plants, yet clustered round the waterholes there were pulpy masses of mat-ter: lumps of primordial soup — soundless, sightless, unbreathing, unawake and unsleeping — each con-taining the essence of life, or the possibility of becoming human.
Beneath the Earth’s crust,. however, the constellations glimmered, the Sun shone, the Moon waxed and waned, and all the forms of life lay sleeping: the scarlet of a desert-pea, the irridescence on a butterfly’s wing, the twitching white whiskers of Old Man Kangaroo — dorm-ant as seeds in the desert that must wait for a wandering shower.
On the morning of the First Day, the Sun felt the urge to be born. (That evening the Stars and Moon would follow.) The Sun burst through the surface, flooding the land with golden light, warming the hollows under which each Ancestor lay sleeping. Unlike the Sky-dwellers, these Ancients had never been young. They were lame, exhausted greybeards with knotted limbs, and they had slept in isolation through the ages.
So it was, on this First Morning, that each drowsing Ancestor felt the Sun’s warmth pressing on his eyelids, and felt his body giving birth to children. The Snake Man felt snakes slithering out of his navel. The Cockatoo Man felt feathers. The Witchetty Grub Man felt a wriggling, the Honey-ant a tickling, the Honeysuckle felt his leaves and flowers unfurling. The Bandicoot Man felt baby bandicoots seething from under his armpits. Every one of the ‘living things’, each at its own separate birthplace, reached up for the light of day.
In the bottom of their hollows (now filling up with water), the Ancients shifted one leg, then another leg. They shook their shoulders and flexed their arms. They heaved their bodies upward through the mud. Their eyelids cracked open. They saw their children at play in the sunshine. The mud fell from their thighs, like placenta from a baby. Then, like the baby’s cry, each Ancestor opened his mouth and called out, ‘I AM!’ ‘I am — Snake
Cockatoo ... Honey-ant... Honeysuckle ...‘ And this first ‘I am!’, this primordial act of naming, was held, then and forever after, as the most secret and sacred couplet of the Ancestor’s song.
Each of the Ancients (now basking in the sunlight) put his left foot forward and called out a second name. He put his right foot forward and called out a third name. He named the waterhole, the reedbeds, the gum trees —calling to right and left, calling all things into being and weaving their names into verses.
The Ancients sang their way all over the world. They sang the rivers and ranges, salt-pans and sand dunes. They hunted, ate, made love, danced, killed: wherever their tracks led they left a trail of music.
They wrapped the whole world in a web of song; and at last, when the Earth was sung, they felt tired. Again in their limbs they felt the frozen immobility of Ages. Some sank into the ground where they stood. Some crawled into caves. Some crept away to their ‘Eternal Homes’, to the ancestral waterholes that bore them.
All of them went ‘back in’.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 92 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Apr 13, 2000 (14:34) * 1 lines
Fascinating, Maggie. Thanks for taking the time to post all of that here. Excellent and intriguing.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 93 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Thu, Apr 20, 2000 (08:18) * 1 lines
Belated thank you Maggie for that information.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 94 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Fri, Apr 21, 2000 (14:42) * 1 lines
Alexander says that some of Chatwin's info has since been proved to be not as accurate as was once thought - but the story is good anyway!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 95 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Apr 21, 2000 (15:59) * 1 lines
A good story is always a good story. Read it for that value - but post his stuff in Books rather than here, please! It his hard enough to find authentic creation mythology as it is. Thanks for bringing that up.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 96 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sun, Apr 23, 2000 (17:10) * 1 lines
I posted that aboriginal story in good faith - it is presented as an authentic creation story, not the invention of the travel writer. From my own experience in collecting this kind of oral material from individuals who are living resources, there will always be questions of full authenticity, and other 'living resources' may disagree with details of the story. Hence, my follow on caveat.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 97 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Apr 23, 2000 (17:57) * 1 lines
That is how I did read it - and I see how miserable I was feeling yesterday...Sorry Maggie. I sounded much harsher than I intended to. Please forgive!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 98 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Sun, Apr 23, 2000 (18:40) * 1 lines
Apology accepted. It did make me jump a bit though, although i wouldn't post something I thought was iffy.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 99 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Apr 23, 2000 (19:48) * 2 lines
I know you wouldn't...I cannot imagine what (oh yes, I can...) was bothering me.
*hugs* Maggie...*BIG hugs*!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 100 of 192: World Builder (MarciaH) * Wed, Apr 26, 2000 (19:18) * 25 lines
from Maggie:
Hermaphroditism is portrayed in the sculpture of some African
peoples, including Dogon of Mali and Luba-Katanga of
Congo/Kinshasa. References may be made to the cosmological
origins of categories and classifications, but there can be more
specific meanings as well. Luba consider political authority and
power to transcend the confines of ordinary definitions, gender
or otherwise, and while most sculpture depicts women, the
reference is to male office. In effect, "the king is a woman,"
for only women have the strength to hold, preserve, and convey
the secrets of political life.
Hermaphroditic figures, although uncommon, do make this intimate
relationship both conceptually and visually accessible. A further
sense of the empowering transcendence of gender is available in
everyday life through spirit possession. These matters are
discussed in _Memory: Luba Art and the Making of History_ by Mary
Nooter Roberts and Allen F. Roberts (1996, Prestel). Such
intellectual concerns do not mean that the physical anomalies of
individuals encountered in real life are treated any more
sympathetically by Luba than by people the world over, however.
H-AFRICA@H-NET.MSU.EDU email list.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 101 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Tue, May 2, 2000 (02:09) * 1 lines
I found a Bambara (Mali) creation story in a book of published stories I have. Trouble is the gloss is in French, so i shall have to translate it. If i write it up, I'll get it checked by autumn and then post it. It's very different to the others we've seen.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 102 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 2, 2000 (11:31) * 1 lines
Can't wait! The Dogon was the most "far out" one I have heard of so far. Their ancestors came from a planet circling Sirius b...
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 103 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Tue, May 2, 2000 (13:30) * 1 lines
From what i can make out so far without a dictionary, this one is a chicken and egg story! I do my best!!!!! *big grin*
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 104 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 2, 2000 (13:59) * 1 lines
Curious to know which came first, we wait with as much patience as we can muster.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 105 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Fri, May 5, 2000 (06:13) * 1 lines
I really is an imponderable - either God is or............
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 106 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, May 5, 2000 (13:51) * 1 lines
Yes! I am interested in the take on it from this other culture's traditions.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 107 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, May 5, 2000 (13:53) * 1 lines
Anne, God would figure in it in any case. HE could have created either one and let it go from there, is that not so?!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 108 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Thu, May 11, 2000 (13:20) * 33 lines
Ok, here's my translation of the story I promised. It's a fairly literal translation, someone else could probably do better. I've written it out like it appeared in the original. The epithet 'a little tale, a little tale' and the end one 'I have left this small tale where I found it' appear frequently in oral stories (we have something similar in Mandinka stories).
A Bambara creation story from Mali
A little tale. A little tale
The egg and the chick went to pick lemons.
The chick said to the egg, ‘Climb up the lemon tree and pick the lemons’.
The egg responded that he couldn’t climb.
The chick climbed and shook the lemon tree.
The lemons fell.
They ate them.
The egg in his turn climbed, telling the chick to collect the dust and spread it out under him, so that if he fell he would not break.
The chick collected the dust and spread it under the tree, but a small stone was hidden in the dust.
The egg shook the tree and fell on the small stone, splat! And he broke himself.
And the chick laughed, and laughed and laughed.
But a branch cut off the chick’s head.
And the branch laughed, and laughed and laughed.
The fire burnt the branch.
And the fire laughed, and laughed and laughed.
The water extinguished the fire.
And the water laughed, and laughed and laughed.
The earth absorbed the water.
And the earth laughed, and laughed and laughed.
The earth and God quarrelled.
God picked up the earth and dropped it.
It is since that day that the earth is in her place.
I have left this small tale where I found it.
(Gorog-karady, V. and Meyer, G. 1985, Contes bambara, Mali et Senegal oriental, Conseil International de la langue francaise)
(translated from the French by Maggie Canvin)
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 109 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, May 11, 2000 (14:40) * 68 lines
DNA research links genes of Jews, Palestinians
Associated Press
JERUSALEM - Tradition says the biblical patriarch Abraham
fathered both the Jewish and Arab nations.
Now, new DNA-based research reveals a genetic link between
Jews and Palestinians, suggesting the two peoples, locked in a
bitter struggle for more than a century, indeed share a common
ancestry dating back 4,000 years.
The study, published Tuesday in The Proceedings of the National
Academy of Sciences in Washington, D.C., says the Y
chromosome found in Jewish men may go back to a common
pool of Middle Eastern ancestors.
After the first major Jewish exile of 586 B.C., when Jews
dispersed across Europe and North Africa, Jews largely retained
their genetic identity, one that was formed in the Middle East,
according to the study, led by Michael Hammer of the University
of Arizona.
Even after centuries of exile, Diaspora Jews remained closer to
each other and more similar to Palestinians, Syrians and
Lebanese in terms of shared Y chromosome characteristics than
to people in their host countries, the study says.
"Eventually people will realize that they are not that different," said
Batsheva Bonne-Tamir, a geneticist from Tel Aviv University who
participated in the study.
Still, she cautioned that the techniques were new and that until the
human genome is mapped, it will be difficult to be certain about
the conclusions.
The study compared the male, or Y, chromosome, which is
passed from father to son, in 1,371 males from seven groups of
Israeli Jews of various origins and 16 non-Jewish groups in the
Middle East, Africa and Europe.
Mr. Hammer identified 19 variations of the Y chromosome,
including eight lineages found to varying degrees among Jews
and Arabs.
Based on this measure, the study found that despite the many
centuries their ancestors had spent in exile in different parts of the
world, the Israeli Jews in the sample had the closest genetic links.
Next in genetic affinity to Jews were Palestinians and Syrians,
followed by Saudi Arabians, Lebanese and Druse, a Middle
Eastern sect that practices a secret form of Islam.
According to the research, in one of the lineage branches, the
variation in the Y chromosome between Jews and Palestinians
differed by only 1 percent, compared with a difference of 5
percent between Jews and Europeans.
A low rate of intermarriage between Diaspora Jews and gentiles
was a key reason for the continuity, Ms. Bonne-Tamir said. For
example, since Jews first settled in Europe 80 generations ago,
the intermarriage rate was estimated to be only about 0.5 percent
in each generation.
Hebrew University geneticist Howard Cedar said even though Y
chromosomes are considered the best tool for tracing genetic
heritage, researchers still don't know what the history is behind
the variations. As a result, it is difficult to draw conclusions about
genetic affinity.
"The problem is in the interpretation," Mr. Cedar said. "It's very
difficult to reconstruct the histories of these events; it's difficult to
interpret."
Ms. Bonne-Tamir, who heads the National Laboratory for the
Genetics of Israeli Populations, said that until recently, such
research on genetic affinity was limited to classical markers, such
as blood groups and enzymes.
The genetic link between Jews and Arabs suggested by the study
is reflected in the biblical account in Genesis of how Abraham
fathered two sons: Ishmael by his wife's maid Hagar, and then,
when Sarah was able to conceive, Isaac. Although Muslims give
a different version of the story, they revere Abraham and Ishmael
or Ibrahim and Ismail, - just as Jews do Abraham and Isaac.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 110 of 192: anne hale (ommin) * Mon, May 15, 2000 (05:44) * 1 lines
Now as a Christian I never had any doubts about it; but it is most interesting to have it proved! I have visited Israel twice met Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth, spoke with some length to both Arab and Jew and never had any doubt to their kinship! Yusef our driver and Ahouva our guide in our tour were most interesting. Yusef was a Christian Palestinian and Ahouva a Major in the Israeli army - an interesting combination but it worked when they were prepared to work together. Its politicians as usual that mess everything up. What is your opinion?
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 111 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, May 15, 2000 (11:23) * 1 lines
Agree with you entirely - no doubts whatsoever!
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 112 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (15:09) * 9 lines
In the beginning, the Cherokee believed that the earth was
covered with water and that beavers came from the sky to drag
the mud from the oceans bottom and bring it to the top. The
beavers attached it to the sky and created the land. The
"great buzzard" then flew to the ground where he flapped his
wings and the valleys and mountains were formed. It was on
one of these flights that the "great buzzard" created the
land on which the Cherokees lived.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 113 of 192: Maggie (sociolingo) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (16:32) * 1 lines
Where did that come from ? (i.e. where did you find it?)
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 114 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (16:36) * 2 lines
I got it in "forgotten news" - the rest of that story is posted in
History conference topic 6
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 115 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (16:56) * 75 lines
In Honor of John, who is part Cherokee, I present the following:
Yellowstone Valley and the Great Flood
"I have heard it told on the Cheyenne Reservation in Montana and the Seminole camps in the Florida
Everglades, I have heard it from the Eskimos north of the Arctic Circle and the Indians south of the equator.
The legend of the flood is the most universal of all legends. It is told in Asia, Africa, and Europe, in North
America and the South Pacific." Professor Hap Gilliland of Eastern Montana College was the first to record
this legend of the great flood.
This is one of the fifteen legends of the flood that he himself recorded in various parts of the world:
He was an old Indian. his face was weather beaten, but his eyes were still bright. I never knew what tribe he
was from, though I could guess. Yet others from the tribe whom I talked to later had never heard his story.
We had been talking of the visions of the young men. He sat for a long time, looking out across the
Yellowstone Valley through the pouring rain, before he spoke. "They are beginning to come back," he said.
"Who is coming back?" I asked.
"The animals," he said. "It has happened before."
"Tell me about it.'
He thought for a long while before he lifted his hands and his eyes. "The Great Spirit smiled on this land when
he made it. There were mountains and plains, forests and grasslands. There were animals of many
kinds--and men."
The old man's hands moved smoothly, telling the story more clearly than his voice.
The Great Spirit told the people, "These animals are your brothers. Share the land with them. They will give
you food and clothing. Live with them and protect them.
"Protect especially the buffalo, for the buffalo will give you food and shelter. The hide of the buffalo will keep
you from the cold, from the heat, and from the rain. As long as you have the buffalo, you will never need to
suffer."
For many winters the people lived at peace with the animals and with the land. When they killed a buffalo,
they thanked the Great Spirit, and they used every part of the buffalo. It took care of every need.
Then other people came. They did not think of the animals as brothers. They killed, even when they did not
need food. They burned and cut the forests, and the animals died. They shot the buffalo and called it sport.
They killed the fish in the streams.
When the Great Spirit looked down, he was sad. He let the smoke of the fires lie in the valleys. The people
coughed and choked. But still they burned and they killed.
So the Great Spirit sent rains to put out the fires and to destroy the people.
The rains feil, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded valleys to the higher land.
Spotted Bear, the medicine man, gathered together his people. He said to them, "The Great Spirit has told
us that as long as we have the buffalo we will be safe from heat and cold and rain. But there are no longer any
buffalo. Unless we can find buffalo and live at peace with nature, we will all die."
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded plains to the hills.
The young men went out and hunted for the buffalo. As they went they put out the fires. They made friends with
the animals once more. They cleaned out the streams.
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded hills to the mountains.
Two young men came to Spotted Bear. "We have found the buffalo," they said. "There was a cow, a calf, and
a great white bull. The cow and the calf climbed up to the safety of the mountains. They should be back when
the rain stops. But the bank gave way, and the bull was swept away by the floodwaters. We followed and got
him to shore, but he had drowned. We have brought you his hide."
They unfolded a huge white buffalo skin.
Spotted Bear took the white buffalo hide. "Many people have been drowned," he said. "Our food has been
carried away. But our young people are no longer destroying the world that was created for them. They have
found the white buffalo. It will save those who are left."
Still the rains fell, and the waters rose. The people moved from the flooded mountains to the highest peaks.
Spotted Bear spread the white buffalo skin on the ground. He and the other medicine men scraped it and
stretched it, and scraped it and stretched it.
Still the rains fell. Like all rawhide, the buffalo skin stretched when it was wet. Spotted Bear stretched it out
over the village. All the people who were left crowded under it.
As the rains fell, the medicine men stretched the buffalo skin across the mountains. Each day they stretched it
farther.
Then Spotted Bear tied one corner to the top of the Big Horn Mountains. That side, he fastened to the Pryors.
The next corner he tied to the Bear Tooth Mountains. Crossing the Yellowstone Valley, he tied one corner to
the Crazy Mountains, and the other to Signal Butte in the Bull Mountains.
The whole Yellowstone Valley was covered by the white buffalo skin. Though the rains still fell above, it did not
fall in the Yellowstone Valley.
The waters sank away. Animals from the outside moved into the valley, under the white buffalo skin. The
people shared the valley with them.
Still the rains fell above the buffalo skin. The skin stretched and began to sag.
Spotted Bear stood on the Bridger Mountains and raised the west end of the buffalo skin to catch the West
Wind. The West Wind rushed in and was caught under the buffalo skin. The wind lifted the skin until it formed
a great dome over the valley.
The Great Spirit saw that the people were living at peace with the earth. The rains stopped, and the sun
shone. As the sun shone on the white buffalo skin, it gleamed with colours of red and yellow and blue.
As the sun shone on the rawhide, it began to shrink. The ends of the dome shrank away until all that was left
was one great arch across the valley.
The old man's voice faded away; but his hands said "Look," and his arms moved toward the valley.
The rain had stopped and a rainbow arched across the Yellowstone Valley. A buffalo calf and its mother
grazed beneath it.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 116 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (17:04) * 71 lines
Why the Opussum's Tail Is Bare (Cherokee)
In the beginning all living things - men, animals, plants and trees - spoke the same language and behaved in
much the same way. Animals, like people, were organized into tribes. They had chiefs, lived in houses, held
councils and ceremonies.
Many animals had characteristics which we would not recognize today. The rabbit, for example, was fierce,
bold and cunning, and a great mischief maker. It was through Rabbit's tricks that the deer lost his sharp
wolf-like teeth, the buzzard his handsome topknot of feathers and the opossum his long, bushy tail.
Opossum was very proud of his tail which, in those days, was covered with thick black fur. He spent long
hours cleaning and brushing it and composing songs about its beauty and vigour. Sometimes, when he
walked through the village, he carried his tail erect, like a banner rippling in the breeze. At other times, he
swept it low behind him, like a train. It was useful as well as beautiful, for when Opossum lay down to sleep,
he tucked it under him to make a soft bed, and in cold weather he folded it over his body to keep himself
warm.
Rabbit was very jealous of Opossum's tail. He, too, had once had a long bushy tail but, during the course of a
a fight with Bear, he had lost most of it and now had only a short fluffy tuft. The sight of Opossum strutting
before the other animals and swirling his tail ostentatiously, filled Rabbit with rage and he made up his mind
to play a trick on him at the first opportunity.
At this time, when the animals still lived harmoniously together, each had his appointed station and duty.
Thus, Frog was leader in the council and Rabbit, because of his speed, was employed to carry messages
and announcements to the others.
As was their custom from time to time, the animals decided to hold a great council to discuss important
matters and Rabbit, as usual, was given the task of arranging the gathering and delivering the invitations.
Councils were also occasions for feasting and dancing and Rabbit saw a way of bringing about Opossum's
downfall.
When Rabbit arrived with the news of the meeting, Opossum was sitting by the door of his lodge engaged in
his favourite occupation - grooming his tail.
'I come to call you to the great council tomorrow, brother Opossum,' said Rabbit. 'Will you attend and join in
the dance ?'
'Only if I am given a special seat,' replied the conceited Opossum, carefully smoothing some untidy hairs at
the tip of his tail. 'After all,' he went on, grinning maliciously at Rabbit, 'I have such a beautiful long tail that I
ought to sit where everyone can see and admire it.'
Rabbit was almost beside himself with fury, but he pretended not to notice the jibe and said, 'But of course,
brother Opossum! I will personally see to it that you have the best seat in the council lodge, and I will also
send someone to dress your tail specially for the dance.'
Opossum was delighted by this suggestion and Rabbit left him singing the praises of his tail even more
loudly than usual.
Next, Rabbit called on the cricket, whom Indians call the barber, because of his fame as an expert hair-cutter.
Cricket listened with growing amazement as Rabbit recounted his conversation with Opossum. Like all the
other animals, he found Opossum's vanity and arrogance very tiresome.
He began to protest, but Rabbit held up a paw and said, 'Wait a moment. I have a plan and I need your help.
Listen...', and he dropped his voice as he told Cricket what he wanted him to do.
Early next morning Cricket presented himself at Opossum's door and said that he had been sent by Rabbit to
prepare the famous tail for the council that evening. Opossum made himself comfortable on the floor and
stretched out his tail. Cricket began to comb it gently.
'I will wrap this red cord round your tail as I comb it,' he explained, 'so that it will remain smooth and neat for
the dance tonight.'
Opossum found Cricket's ministrations so soothing that he fell asleep, awakening just as Cricket was tying
the final knot in the red cord which now completely swathed his tail.
'I will keep it bound up until the very last moment,' thought Opossum gleefully. 'How envious the others will be
when I finally reveal it in all its beauty!'
That evening, his tail still tightly wrapped in the red cord, Opossum marched into the council lodge and was
led to his special seat by a strangely obsequious Rabbit.
Soon it was time for the dancing to take place. The drums and rattles began to sound. Opossum stood up,
loosened the cord from his tail and stepped proudly into the centre of the dance floor. He began to sing.
'Look at my beautiful tail!' he sang as he circled the floor. 'See how it sweeps the ground!'
There was a great shout from the audience and some of the animals began to applaud. 'How they admire
me!' though Opossum and he continued dancing and singing loudly. 'See how my tail gleams in the firelight!'
Again everyone shouted and cheered. Opossum began to have just the merest suspicion that all was not
quite as it should be. Was there possibly a hint of mockery in their voices ? He dismissed such an absurd
idea and continued dancing.
'My tail is stronger than the eagle's, more lustrous than the raven's!'
At this the animals shrieked so loudly that Opossum stopped in his tracks and looked at them. To his
astonishment and chagrin they were all convulsed with laughter, some leaning weakly on their neighbour's
shoulders, others rolling on the ground in their mirth. Several were pointing at his tail.
Bewildered, Opossum looked down and saw to his horror that his tail, his beautiful, thick, glossy tail, was now
balk and scaly like that of a lizard. Nothing remained of its former glory. While pretending to comb it, the wily
Cricket had snipped off every single lair.
Opossum was so overcome with shame and confusion that he could not utter a sound. Instead he rolled over
helplessly on his back, grimmacing with embarrasment, just as opossums still do today, when taken by
surprise.
Topic 28 of 92 [Geo]: Geo Mythology
Response 117 of 192: Marcia (MarciaH) * Tue, May 16, 2000 (17:11) * 63 lines
http://www.nativenashville.com/History/first_woman.htm
The Legend of the First Woman (Cherokee) - As Told by Mary Ulmer Chiltoskey
For a time the man was very happy on earth. He roamed around and ate the fruits and berries
and he visited the animals and he saw all his homeland. There was much to learn and the
earth was beautiful. But before long the man grew discontented and he became very
unhappy. He didn't know what this disease was, bit it was a disease that we still have. He
was bored.
When he got bored, he used his mind and his strength differently. he shot arrows at the deer
without really needing to. He picked the plants and didn't use them. He tore up the animals'
dens just to see if he could do it. And soon the animals became concerned about the new
creature.
The animals called a council meeting to try to determine what to do. They said they thought
this creature was supposed to have respect for other creatures, that he was given a mind. A
little insect said, "Wait, you haven't thought this out. The Great One made him; let's ask him
what to do." This seemed to be a good idea. They called to the Great One to help them with
the new "superior" creature.
The owl said, "You told us the man has a mind and he is to respect us."
The deer said, "I don't want to be disrespectful, but you told us the man would need more of
us deer than any other animal. If he keeps killing us like he is now, very soon he won't have
any deer left."
"Oh," said the Great One, "thank you, thank you. I had not thought about something I left out
in this man."
The bear said, "Look at him right now. He's lying out in the sun with his face up. No animal
will sleep right out in the open. We all know to go into a private, guarded place to rest."
The Great One said, "Yes, there is something missing because I was in such a hurry to make
him. But I know what is missing."
"Stand back," he said. He made a green plant to grow up tall. The plant grew up right over
the man's heart, up toward Galunlati. It was a plant with long, graceful leaves and then an ear
and a golden tassel. Above the tall plant was a woman, a beautiful, tall, brown woman
growing from the stalk of strong corn.
The man woke up and thought he was dreaming. He rubbed his eyes and said, "This is not
true. In a minute I'll wake up and be just as bored as I was before. Oh, I am so lonely."
The Great One sort of kicked him in the behind. "Get up you lazy thing," the Great One said.
"Be a man for your lady" Now no one had any reason to think this man was a mannerly
individual. Recently he had certainly not been acting like a real gentleman. But we don't have
to be taught manners: We need someone to expect the best from us and we use the manners
the Great One has already given us. So the man got up, brushed himself off, and gallantly
offered his hand to the woman who came down from the stalk of corn.
The woman said, "No, wait a minute." The man didn't argue or huff. He just waited as she
asked. She reached up and pulled two good ears of corn to take with her. Then she said, "I'm
ready." Do you know why she wanted the corn? She couldn't have known yet that the corn
would be an important food. She just knew that she had sprung from the corn and she
needed to take something of her heritage with her.
The Great One remembered that although each man will sometimes need to be alone, each
man will also need companionship to be his best.
Over a period of time, the man and t