Topic 40 of 71: boxing
Sun, Nov 23, 1997 (06:57) |
Paul Terry Walhus (terry)
Boxing. Not my favorite sport. But controversial and in major dissarray at times.
What, if any, future is there for boxing?
249 responses total.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 1 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Nov 23, 1997 (06:58) * 90 lines
Some comments from Dale Smoaks on George Foremans
farewell fight.
I watched George Foreman take apart Shannon Briggs, a man half his age,
tonight. George lost the first round, but even by the end of it, you could
see he was going to get to him sooner or later. He'd solved how to reach
him, and once he did Briggs often looked like he was fighting through
fear. In the middle rounds it looked like George was on the verge of
ending it. Briggs had little pockets of effectiveness, and confidence,
but mostly George drove him around with his jab. Briggs conquered his
fear enough to pick up a couple of the later rounds, and then George
beat him all over the ring in the 12th. Even though George is not a
sleek athlete, his technical control of how he fights now, especially
compared to his "prime" 25 years ago, is really astonishing. He looked
great. His footwork was terrific; he's so good at cutting off the ring.
I always felt that he'd have a good shot against Lennox Lewis.
I was as surprised as I'd ever been at a decision to hear it go majority for
Briggs. I had it 6-5-1 Foreman, and it didn't really feel even that
close. Foreman thoroughly dominated some of the rounds he won, although
with no knockdowns they weren't good enough to give to him 10-8. When
Briggs would stay at angles and throw more punches instead of just trying
to defend himself, he'd have the better of it enough to take a round,
perhaps.
George looked right after the fight like he knew he'd won it, but in the
interview, he refused to badmouth the decision, or to even say he thought
he won. He was gracious, and just as unflappable as ever. He praised
Briggs, said that he'd come back from a lot and that he hoped the
win would help him. When asked whether he'd retire, he said that he'd
had a great career, and that he felt that he was done. For his part, Briggs
looked to me like a man coming to terms with having just received the
greatest gift of his career, and having to talk about it on television on
the fly.
But what stuck with me was that interview afterwards. I really was
stunned at how gracious he was. He didn't talk in sports cliches; he
meant it.
Here's a man who won in the Olympics in 1968, and became known for waving
that little flag around the same week that John Carlos and Tommie Smith
raised their fists. Foreman was basically a bully con, who was powerful
and wild. He destroyed Joe Frazier. He destroyed everyone, until Ali
got to him by fighting both a brilliant psychological fight and a
brilliant tactical fight. Foreman landed on his ass that night. He was
losing very badly to Ali by the 8th round, but when he actually got KO'd
it was as much from giving in to Ali as anything else.
Then Foreman lurched around for a few years, and ended up losing to Jimmy
Young. And retiring. He ran a poor ministry in Houston, had several
sons named George, and daughters all with the same name, too. And then
come back after 10 years. His comeback was an honest one. Instead of
making some big money cameo the way Sugar Ray Leonard did this year,
George started fighting stiffs and worked his way back over about 20
fights. In other words, he did it seriously. And he started beating
good fighters. The night he fought Moorer, he wore the same trunks he'd
lost to Ali in. He spent the whole night setting Moorer up for a
straight right hand. Moorer was the type of fighter George couldn't beat
by decision. He had one chance, and after losing 9 rounds, George landed
that right hand. 45 years old, and 20 years after losing the title, he's
undisputed champion again. I can't think of anything in sports quite
like that.
And he did it after that long layoff almost entirely remade. He had a
bigger body. He had learned relaxation and control in the ring. In
some ways he's looked to me better than he was when he was younger,
although it's hard to believe that he could be. And he came back an
entirely different person, too. He'd been this brooding, angry man
the first time he was champion, and when Ali penetrated his psyche, it
broke him. Then he comes back after 10 years a much more serene man. It
took awhile to see that side of him because of the jolly facade he
presented, but it's there.
After he knocked out Moorer, it seemed clear in retrospect that Foreman
waged his second career as a quest to regain the title. He made a lot of
money, and always said he was doing it for the money, but after he
KO'd Moorer it suddenly looked like his whole purpose had been to
redeem himself. Maybe for quitting against Ali. Maybe for who he had
been.
He certainly picked his opponents carefully after that, and he had some
close calls. But after dominating his last couple of fights, it looked
like he was going to just keep going. It looked like that until the
decision was announced, anyway.
To me he's been the most interesting person in sports in recent years.
His career pattern was unique, and he accomplished what he did by
transforming his basic identity as a person. And given how he handled
tonight, I'd say he went out on top.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 2 of 249: John Jacobson (Hoop) * Sat, Dec 20, 1997 (16:26) * 6 lines
Dale,
Just thought I'd add my $.02 on George Foreman. I have followed his "comeback" career very closely and would have to be considered one of his admirerers. I perceived George to be an extremely likable fellow. Then George fought Axel Shultz. In my opinion (and others I'm sure), George lost this fight by a wide margin. This fight wasn't even close it was so lopsided. The judges gave the victory to Foreman in what surely must have been a fixed fight. After the fight, Foreman bragged about his victory w
en being interviewed. My respect for George Foreman ended that second--never to return. George has more bullshit than a fertilizer factory.
If he lost a decision he should have won, it serves him right!
Just my $02 worth!!
Hoop
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 3 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Mar 7, 1998 (13:39) * 9 lines
I ran into someone in the Q Club hot tub yesterday who's an up and
coming pro heavyweight boxer. His name is Humphries. He played for the UT
Texas Longhorns in college, for the Vikings till he go hurt as a running back
and now he's prepping for Floyd Patterson's son, anyone ever heard of
thsi guy?
I was surprised at how small he was, though well muscled, and he told me all
these guys like Tyson and Holyfield are small in real life and
look deceptively large on the tv screen.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 4 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Feb 20, 1999 (22:08) * 55 lines
From ESPN, the end of Mike Tyson:
Saturday, Feb. 20 9:02pm ET
Tyson in detention after apparent jail tantrum
ESPN.com news services
ROCKVILLE, Md. -- ESPN has confirmed that former heavyweight boxing
champion Mike Tyson has been placed in administrative segregation at the
Montgomery County Detention Center pending a hearing that is set for
sometime Monday.
The detention stems from an incident that happened Friday afternoon when
Tyson received a disciplinary infraction for allegedly throwing a
television at a set of bars.
Tyson's outburst could make it harder for him to gain an early release to
resume his career.
"Mr. Tyson was going through some problems Friday night," Eric Seleznow,
spokesman for the Montgomery County Department of Correction and
Rehabilitation, told Reuter news service on Saturday.
"He threw a TV. He was written up and remanded to the facility's
administrative segregation area. He threw it against some bars with people
on the other side. No one was injured."
Tyson has been in the Montgomery County jail since Feb. 5. A judge
sentenced him to 12 months imprisonment for punching a 60-year-old man in
the jaw and kicking a 50-year-old in the groin last August after a traffic
accident in the suburban Washington community of Gaithersburg. He pleaded
no contest to two misdemeanor assault charges in December.
County officials said he has been housed with about a dozen other inmates
who are secluded from the general population of 640 prisoners.
The Maryland jail term has meant fresh trouble for Tyson, a convicted
rapist who was suspended from boxing for more than a year for biting the
ears of world champion Evander Holyfield in a June 1997 title bout.
Before Friday's incident, Tyson faced the possibility of being sent back
to jail in Indiana for up to four years for violating probation after
early release for the 1992 rape conviction.
Tyson backers also have warned that the Nevada State Athletic Commission
could revoke his license for good because of the Maryland incident.
"He's been generally compliant and reasonable until this incident," said
Seleznow.
County officials have said Tyson could resume training within three to
four months if he were to gain early release for good behavior.
But the prison officials who preside over Monday's disciplinary hearing
could impose punishments ranging from a loss of good-behavior time to a
loss of visitation rights and other privileges.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 5 of 249: stacey leigh vura (stacey) * Tue, Feb 23, 1999 (11:33) * 1 lines
he's a freakin psycho!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 6 of 249: George Klos (osceola) * Tue, Feb 23, 1999 (12:19) * 1 lines
He's had all the chances he's gonna get. His career is through, and he's got no one to blame but himself.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 7 of 249: stacey leigh vura (stacey) * Tue, Feb 23, 1999 (13:00) * 5 lines
honestly, I'm not sure he'll put two and two together on that one...
I'm not sure he understands 'accountability' and/or "cause and effect"
but thankfully, I think you're right...
his career is finito!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 8 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Feb 7, 2036 (00:35) * 6 lines
Apparently, Tyson was on the phone and a guard came and hung up the
receiver, and Tyson went in to a rage, picking up a small tv set and
throwing it in the direction of a couple of guards. They weren't amused.
Tyson's toast, alright. He could have had millions and a good life, now
he's on the way to a life behind bars.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 9 of 249: Alexander Schuth (aschuth) * Thu, Jul 1, 1999 (13:55) * 1 lines
Wasn't that where he'd just been? Or do I mix something up?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 10 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (20:17) * 14 lines
I saw the fight in the smoke filled Yellow Rose titty bar down street from
me. I went to watch the Longhorns game which was also pay per view but
decided to stay and get my money's worth. I got a table dance from my
friend Liz, which was fun. It was a good fight because I like the finesse
matches better than the slugfests. De La Hoya deserved the fight because
he landed about 100 more punches. But Trinidad landed slightly more
straight punches, De La Hoya is a jabber. The final rounds should carry
more weight, and apparently that's what the judges felt.
Worst outcome: Don King gloating and the post fight.
Lesson: Don't take anything for granted, even if you have a big lead.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 11 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (22:20) * 1 lines
If Don King is in the opponent's corner, don't let the fight go to the judges' scorecards (even if Arum is promoting the fight). You know who has greased at least two of the judges.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 12 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 20, 1999 (22:29) * 2 lines
I am a licensed fight judge in the state of Hawaii. I haven't judged a pro fight in ten years, although my license is valid anywhere in the world. I still judge amateur bouts, and when I lose about 50 more pounds, will get back to refereeing as well. I don't believe the final rounds should carry more weight. That's why cards are taken between every round and tabulated. But still, you can't trust judges, and although boxing--unlike pro wrestling--is usually real, the outcomes are sometimes paid for.
he one judge who called the fight a draw, Glen Hamada, of Tacoma, Washington, is originally from Hawaii. I judged the fight 115-114, DeLa Hoya. Still, that is so close that greased or not, I can't really squabble about a difference of two points on another judge's--who saw the fight live--card. And you don't get a totally real view on TV. Nothing beats the judges' seats, ringside center.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 13 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (10:35) * 5 lines
I think you scored it right, De La Hoya socred 100 more punches but they
were lighter weight punches. And De La Hoya played it too safe at the
end.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 14 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Tue, Sep 21, 1999 (22:12) * 1 lines
Although I have strong anti-Don King feelings, I can't really blame the judges for this one. Judging, even honest judging, is a subjective art.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 15 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (07:51) * 15 lines
This whole thing cries out for rematch and re-rematch, mo' money for Don
King and company. I wouldn't have seen it except for the Horns game.
Next time may be better because De La Hoya has something to prove. And
he'll not let up.
What's up with Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Is Lewis really the
champ of the future?
And have you seen this guy Butterbean?
And what about women's boxing.
Things to talk about.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 16 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (10:04) * 13 lines
IMHO, it is hard to consider Lennox Lewis, at age 34 "the champion of the future." He is the current WBC champion, while Evander Holyfield praises God for the "providential" decision giving him a draw against Lewis (a fight Lewis clearly won) and letting him keep his WBA and IBF titles. Lewis is clearly the best heavyweight out there now.
Holyfield, age 37, is someone all factions of the fight game agree that they still need--hence the protective decision. He doesn't wear dreadlocks, has never tested positive for marijuana, praises God and trains year-round (despite the fact that he has sired several children out of wedlock, something you don't hear much about because the press loves him also).
Mike Tyson's boxing skills have clearly eroded, as has his image, but he is still the number one draw in the heavyweight ranks, much as people love to see train wrecks, despite their revulsion. Tyson can also still change the complexion of any fight with one lucky punch, or one bite, as the case may be.
The real champion of the future may be Michael Grant, age 27, 6-5, 230 pounds, undefeated (31-0, 21 KOs). He hasn't fought top flight competition yet, but has all the physical tools, except that his chin is untested (which may also be a good thing; he hasn't taken beatings, which age the body).
Eric Esch (a.k.a. "Butterbean") is an anomaly. He won a couple of national "tough guy" contests. He weighs over 300 pounds and is clearly flabby around the midsection. But people love to see him. He has charisma, is white (a factor, politically incorrect or not), and has decent boxing skills despite the WWF circus-type atmosphere that surrounds him. The powers that be gave him a "special title" and refer to him as the "four round champion" (hype). He refuses to fight more than four rounders, which r
legates him to undercard status, but is on the undercards of the biggest events. I do like to watch him, but don't take his act too seriously because he, despite obvious skills, refuses to get into shape and try to take his act to a higher level, suggesting a certain complacency and lack of ambition. He is happy to be a well-paid sideshow freak.
I have mixed feelings about women's boxing. Women have the right to fight if they wish. Some women are good fighters. I, as a consumer, would watch them on the undercard, just as I would Butterbean, but exercise my right not to pay to see a Christy Martin or Tracy Bird fight as a main eventer, just as I would not pay to see Butterbean in a main event, either, unless he lost weight and fought his way up the ranks (unlikely since he is in his mid 30s). If there's sexism in that, (as emperor Joseph of Au
tria said in Amadeus), "Well, there it is."
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 17 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (23:26) * 4 lines
6 foot 5, wow, reminds me that Wilt Chamberlain once claimed he could beat
anyone in the ring but he never actually entered the fight ranks. What
does Michael Lewis have to do to break into a title fight? Sounds like
he's prime material.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 18 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (23:39) * 4 lines
At 6-5, Michael Grant is still two inches shorter than Lennox Lewis, who is the tallest heavyweight champion ever at 6'7" (Primo Carnera was 6'6"). I think his handlers are doing him well. He may be a year or two of seasoning (maybe even three) away from being ready for Lewis. Older warriors' handlers also don't want a young hungry upstart like him upsetting the apple cart until the public clamors for the fight. He may be ready for Holyfield, but there's no way that fight will be made as long as Grant
is not a number one rated contender (always a political process) and the fight becomes mandatory. His handlers want a fight with Tyson (King wants nothing to do with it). King, a shrewd sort, would rather have Tyson waltzing over "tomato cans" until/unless he can get another title shot. Lewis hasn't taken the beatings that Holyfield has and may have another several good years left in him, even at 34. Grant is improving, but he still got into boxing rather late (at age 22) after a college football care
r. There was hype in the mid 60s about Wilt wanting to fight Muhammad Ali (Chamberlain would've won as Ali would've been disqualified for breaking his kneecaps--repeated blows below the belt *LAUGHING*). Seriously, Chamberlain, a decent martial artist, would've stood little chance against a marvelous ring technician and physicist such as Ali. Ed "Too Tall" Jones, a 6'9" former Dallas Cowboys defensive end took a year off to box, went 6-and-0 against undistinguished competition, but took a beating in a
ight he won and retreated back into the "safe haven" of the NFL.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 19 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 22, 1999 (23:46) * 4 lines
Wasn't Buster Douglas in a fight recently or scheduled to fight again
against Tyson?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 20 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (00:25) * 2 lines
Yes, and was denied a license to box for being majorly out of shape. Considering that Butterbean is allowed, Douglas would have to be incredibly out of shape. He has ballooned to over 400 pounds in the past, though, and is a diabetic. Shame. But there is an old saying which is (sometimes) true. Fighters do only two things: fight or get fat. Certainly that was true with Douglas, George Foreman, Roberto Duran, and an old untalented former amateur light-heavysweight named Burnett (John, not former pro
ight-heavy contender Jesse "No Relation" Burnett).
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 21 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (09:12) * 1 lines
What was your record as a fighter John?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 22 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (13:51) * 2 lines
All amateur (1969-72) 31-12 (8 KOs). Slow, not much power, but a decent bodypuncher and good chin, which counts more in the pros than in the amateur ranks. Speaking of marginally talented boxers, do you remember Randall "Tex" Cobb, a heavyweight contender back in the late 70s, who has also done some TV and movie roles, mostly as a villain? Cobb was, and is, a large, genial, funny and smart (degree in philosophy from Abilene Christian) man. Howard Cosell resigned from boxing blow-by-blow after Cobb too
a fearsome licking from then undisputed heavyweight king Larry Holmes. During the fight, Cosell had called on the ref and the ringside physician to stop the one-sided bloodbath, which they did not do. When informed after the fight what Cosell had done, Cobb quipped, "I'll go another 15 rounds with Holmes if Howard will quit announcing football!"
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 23 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (13:53) * 3 lines
That's a great story and a great record. Did you ever fight anyone we
might have heard of?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 24 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (14:01) * 2 lines
Ken Norton beat me like he was my daddy, knocked me down twice, but I lasted the three rounds. Mate Parlov (a Yugoslav--don't know what ethnic background he was), former (at that time future) WBC light-heavy champ, I lost a surprisingly close decision. Former light-heavy contender and for a short while (I had forgotten) IBF cruiserweight champ Jesse (No relation) Burnett, gave me a sound whipping, but didn't knock me down. The only two times I was KOd, it was because of cuts, not knockdowns or disorien
ation. Neither fighter who KOd me went on to pro careers. One was on the Cuban national team (I can't remember his name offhand, but he was good).
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 25 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:02) * 2 lines
No concussions, then? Ergo no brain damage. Excellent news! Was not Alberto
Juantoreno (spelled wrong, I know!)??? All Cuban boxers are better than average of anywhere else...I guess they have to be!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 26 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:25) * 2 lines
No, but I saw Teofilo Stevenson, the great Cuban heavyweight, fight after I took my lumps. He easily outpointed Buster Mathis, Sr., who was a hell of a fighter, despite his ample midsection. I'm sure I suffered some brain damage, but I was never knocked unconscious. I certainly was knocked silly, but nothing I didn't recover enough to fight from after getting up or being administered the "standing eight." Stevenson was the best three round fighter I ever saw. I remember him cold-cocking the favored a
d highly-touted Minnesotan "great white h(d)ope," Duane Bobick, with a single punch, a few years later.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 27 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:27) * 1 lines
BTW, if I'm not mistaken, Alberto Juantorena was an 800 meter Olympic runner, was he not?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 28 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (16:53) * 8 lines
Lasting more than 30 seconds in the ring with Ken NOrton is impressive, in
fact, 3 rounds is very impressive. This was one of the all time fight
greats and onetime heavyweight champion. Now, *that's* something to tell
your grandkids about!
Does anyone else in your family have your athletic ability?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 29 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:01) * 1 lines
Yeah, he was. But I knew if i threw a name in the ring you would think of the correct one and we would all know!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 30 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:03) * 6 lines
Tell us more about the Norton fight, your training, feelings going in and
after, and where it came in both your careers. What year was it?
Do you have a film of it?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 31 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:29) * 4 lines
It was a Navy-Marine smoker in San Diego. He was the Marine champion at the time and close to getting out (1970). He turned pro shortly thereafter, while still in the Marines. I had signed up for the Navy and was sworn in, but hadn't reported for active duty yet. Since I was officially in the service, I used the Naval Training Center's gym facility, since I could so for free. Since I was an amateur fighter, and they needed a light-heavy for the card, I was pressed into action. Elmer Martin, the Navy
s light-heavy champion at the time (who I lost a decision to later that I thought I won) was supposed to fight Norton, but had suffered a training injury (sprained wrist). I had been sparring with him and did what I thought was pretty well, so I felt as prepared as I was going to be. Something in me knew that Norton was a lot better fighter than was. I was relatively inexperienced, I think it was my 11th fight, but I really wanted to to it, just to see where I stacked up. Three years later, I'm off th
coast of 'Nam, and Norton, who developed into a heavyweight, broke Muhammad Ali's jaw. I knew he had a future as a pro, but I didn't know how much of one. I actually think that Norton had to really train himself very slim to fight light-heavy, but he had a bigger man's frame and knew how to use it. He was a nice guy, intelligent, well-spoken and gracious in victory (as well as in defeat when he lost his heavyweight title to Holmes in 1978). Marcia, I still can't remember the Cuban fighter's name. I
as so stoked to see Stevenson (like everyone else in attendance)--and glad it wasn't him I had to fight. That bout wasn't televised...I don't know if any private films exist. I lost all my medals, pictures, and memorabilia in a house fire on the North Shore of Oahu in 1976. All that's left is memories (what's left of them) and the foundation to become an official.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 32 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:35) * 1 lines
I have three cousins who were All-American football players at Arkansas. One of them, Bob Burnett, was the AFL rookie of the year in 1966 as a running back for the Buffalo Bills. I'm not sure I was all that talented...just hard-headed.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 33 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:46) * 3 lines
Without a doubt, you are one of the most fascinating people I have ever met! And, you really know how to tell a story, but I already knew that...I am such a huge fan of yours...*sigh*
I gather there are no petite people in your genetic line. But, there sure are talented ones *smile*
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 34 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:48) * 1 lines
My dad, who had polio as a child, was smallish (5'8", maybe 160). But not other than him. Not everyone in my family is tall, but we all, including my dad, were stocky...even when not fat.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 35 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (17:53) * 1 lines
I remember one of Norton's all time great quotes, after getting KO'd in the first round by Earnie Shavers: "No excuses. He did to me what I wanted to do to him."
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 36 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (19:47) * 5 lines
That's a great story about your Ken Norton fight, John and that's awesome
that your cousins were all All American razorbacks. Tell us what you
remember about the Norton fight iteself. How did ig go, blow by blow?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 37 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 23, 1999 (20:56) * 5 lines
I remember being overwhelmed. I certainly wasn't calling blow-by-blow in my mind, at least after the first really hard punch hit me, a great left hook which just missed "the button" about 20 seconds into the fight. At that point, thoughts of survival took precedence over any false bravado that I may actually win. I remember landing one good body combination in the first round, a left to the side and right to the solar plexus. I connected solidly, and when he didn't gasp, especially with the second blo
, I realized how well conditioned he was. He was willing to let me have the body, if I could reach it, to protect his head. It was smart, because he was faster, with longer arms, and it was difficult to get inside to bang the body. I connected with some random body blows throughout the bout, no more combinations, and no more solid blows to the solar plexus. I don't think I hit him even once solidly to the face...a few grazing blows at best. He hit me with mostly jabs (amateur strategy), and he had a
traight, jarring one, and a good left hook. His right cross was not yet well developed, it was looping, and I was able to avoid most of those by either ducking or moving laterally. I went down twice. Once towards the end of the second round. I never saw the punch. I was told it was a left hook. It clipped me right on the chin. I was able to hear the count from four on and got up at seven. I went into a defensive posture for the rest of the round and survived. My corner wanted to stop the fight.
talked them out of it. My head cleared between rounds and I went into a crouching, defensive style for the third round. I abandoned any thoughts of hitting him in the head, and when he either tired of hitting me or regrouped to take a breath, I threw body shots, some of which landed, but if they were to have effect, it wasn't going to happen in three rounds. I went down again just before the end of the fight. Again, I didn't see or feel the punch, but I was told it was the hook again. This time I wa
in serious trouble and couldn't make out the count. I could only hear that counting was going on and see the ref moving his right arm. I got up, grabbed the ropes, and when Norton came out of his corner, the first, last, and only thing I heard, was the bell saving me. I was cloudy, I was exhausted, both my eyes and my mouth were puffed, I was bleeding from a nostril, but I didn't really feel the pain until an hour or so later, at Balboa Naval Hospital, where they kept me overnight for observation.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 38 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (06:30) * 1 lines
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 39 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (10:18) * 2 lines
Wow, you took a pounding. Did Norton say anything to you while you boxed?
Or before or after the fight?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 40 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (16:28) * 2 lines
Norton was a sportsman and a gentleman. He didn't do any trash talking. In fact, that was rare back then. Muhammad Ali did, of course, but his was funny and almost an art form, not the crude "yo mama" stuff of today. During pre-fight instructions, Norton listened intensely without trying to stare me down. He said nothing while fighting. He didn't have to; his dukes were quite eloquent. After the second round, he nodded and smiled at me. I think he was surprised I got up. If I been thinking about
t, I probably would have been surprised, too. After the fight we talked briefly. He was both well-spoken and soft-spoken. He complimented me on my guts and my chin and encouraged me to stick with it. I recall telling him "it was a privilege getting thrashed by you." He laughed.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 41 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (16:31) * 8 lines
That's funny. Great story, and Norton sounds like a fine person. Have
you seen his son, Ken Norton Jr. I think it is, play for the 49ers. He's
a helluva an athlete too. And he does this thing of punching out the
goalposts after a great play every now and then.
What interesting fights are coming up?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 42 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (16:39) * 13 lines
I haven't really checked. I'm in my postfight withdrawal after Trinidad-DeLaHoya. Call me sexist, but here's a sure sign the apocalypse is upon us:
Seattle (AP)-The state Department of Licensing has approved an Oct. 9 boxing match between a 36-year-old woman and the second man to agree to fight her.
The state had previously given the go-ahead to a match between Margaret McGregor of Bremerton and Hector Morales, 23, but Morales backed out last week.
The bout approved Wednesday will pit McGregor, 130 pounds, against 34-year-old Loi Chow, 125, of Vancouver, British Columbia.
The department's boxing program treated this fight application like any other, said spokesperson Geraldine Calvo, since Washington state law doesn't prohibit male-female boxing.
"If we feel it's a fair match, we go with it," she said of the first pro mixed match approved in Washington.
Chow, a jockey and weightlifter, has a 0-2 record. McGregor, a landscaper, housecleaner, and former kickboxer, has a 3-0 record against women since turning pro in April.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 43 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Sep 24, 1999 (16:46) * 1 lines
Norton's son is a fine linebacker, and probably the only guy in the NFL who can't whip his daddy. Maybe that's why they are reportedly estranged.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 44 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (10:08) * 5 lines
Tonight Shane Mosley makes his debut at welterweight against Wilfredo
Rivera, and there's also the rebroadcast of De La Hoya's "domination" of
Trinidad.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 45 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sat, Sep 25, 1999 (20:01) * 1 lines
"Sugar" Shane is quite the stylist.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 46 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 26, 1999 (09:28) * 7 lines
Tell us about the bout, I missed it, if you saw it.
And a second look at the De La Hoya bout revealed that Trinidad fought a
better fight than I thought. I had the sound on the Longhorn game so I
didn't have the announcer bias factor.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 47 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Sep 26, 1999 (19:27) * 1 lines
I missed it. Live in a building where everybody has basic cable, but premium services are unavailable. I miss HBO and Showtime. I saw Trinidad-De LaHoya at a local watering hole.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 48 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Sep 26, 1999 (23:20) * 1 lines
Are you in Bayshore? Lagoon Center? Mauna Loa Shores? I am not sure I know where you live, my dear! (Don't need to tell me, of course...just wondering)Too much good stuff is on the one-better-than-basic option. We do not get all the sports channels and food and such - ex pays for that too, and I don't want to take advantage of his generosity!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 49 of 249: MarkG (MarkG) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (12:18) * 6 lines
John,
Allow me as a newcomer here to bow in awe at your boxing pedigree. As has been remarked, to have fought someone of Norton's calibre (and survived 3 rounds) is a triumph, but to tell the story so well (and fairly) is mastery of a second art-form also.
I understand your public is interested in the celebrities (I am too) but can you give us a blow-by-blow on what you consider your finest win?
I am also delighted at the recognition that Lewis won the Holyfield fight, and sorry that the reputation of boxing judges was tarnished that night.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 50 of 249: Alexander Schuth (aschuth) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (12:35) * 1 lines
Hiya, Mark, and welcome to the Spring!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 51 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (12:46) * 5 lines
REally, welcome Mark, and the story of that Burnett lifetime high would be
very interesting. I agree, it's one thing to hold your own against Norton
for three rounds and another indeed to recount it so eloquently.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 52 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (13:36) * 3 lines
He is back to teaching this morning. You will have to wait till afternoon our time, but I am sure it will be worth the wait. John is a wordsmith of rare talent. I got him to post, and it is the most fortuitous thing I think I have done for The Spring !
Welcome, Mark. Delighted to see you. Terry, Mark is a cricketer - if you can find anyone who might like to run a topic, I am sure he would find a little time to add information...he just feels he does not have the time to host one. (I'll hold him down while you twist his arm...!)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 53 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:14) * 12 lines
I'm afraid that working on the radio this weekend (no sub was available there) while still sick and chasing down the crashed plane story yesterday has left me not quite well enough to take back my classes today. I am "playing hooky" for one more day. Will be back in class tomorrow. Mark, welcome. I don't have any victories over anyone you probably have heard of. Everyone I fought who went on to a professional career beat me.
I believe the best fight of my career (also a loss on the scorecards, although I still believe I won) was against the then-Navy champion, Elmer Martin, who I sparred with previously and therefore had knowledge of his style. He was a Navy "lifer," a chief petty officer and career amateur. He was about 30 when I fought him and I was 19 (ironically, I was the one close to ending my boxing career, not him). It was the 1972 Navy championships, held at Great Lakes Naval Station north of Chicago.
Martin was quick, but a light-hitting stick-and-move artist. I was more experienced when I fought him than when I had faced Norton. I found his jab annoying, but not really hurtful. I was able to slip some, take some, and get inside to bang the entire fight. I scored the fight's only knockdown (midway through the second round) on a combination left hook to the right side, uppercut to the chin. To his credit, he got up at five. Unfortunately, in amateur bouts (20 point must system at the time), a kno
kdown counts no more than any other clean scoring punch. He was hurt. I could see it in his eyes, but I only had about 30 seconds to try to finish him off. He was taller and had better foot speed. He got "on his bicycle" and I pressed too hard, trying to go for the KO. I wasn't able to connect solidly before the round ended.
He continued to jab away in the third round and I kept going to the body (a smarter pro than amateur tactic, but it was my best weapon). I got him to drop his hands midway through the final round and I tagged him with a left hook to the side of the face (missed the button by about an inch). He sagged against the ropes and the ref called a standing eight. His head cleared and he survived. It was a split decision. One judge gave it to me 59-58, the other two saw it 59-58 Martin.
He wasn't famous, but did fight a few times on national TV (Wide World of Sports) sometimes telecast international amateur and national AAU bouts. Each military champion got an automatic berth in the national AAUs back then. Now that's only true if the state they are stationed in don't have state AAU championships (a few don't). Otherwise now, they must win the state AAU title to advance to the nationals.
Martin was a good ring technician, better than I was, but I know I administered a beating to him. I had one slightly swollen eye at the end. He had a completely swollen lip and was bleeding from both nostrils. But he was brave and game and knew what to do to survive. I also think he got some consideration from the judges for having had the belt for several years.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 54 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:28) * 1 lines
John, really interesting (and how lucky we are to have you another full day)...know anything about Cricket?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 55 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:36) * 8 lines
Good story. Would your career have taken a different turn had you won
that fight? Was it pivotal for your boxing career? It sounds like had
you won, you would have been on Wide World of Sports.
Sure, cricket is so mysterious to most of us, it would be good to pump up
the topic that might be there already.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 56 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:40) * 1 lines
Marcia, I am pitifully ignorant. I used to watch Samoans play at Kapi'olani Park and Ke'ehi Lagoon Park in Honolulu and enjoy it, though. They have wickets (some sticky, I gather), the bat is triangular with flat faces, and the equivalent to a pitcher is called a "bowler." I marvel at the athleticism of Samoans, as I do when I watch them play rugby, American football, or box, as well. I take it, Mark, you're British.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 57 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:43) * 1 lines
Terry, I ended up getting sent to sea for the final three years of my enlistment. That effectively ended my career. If I had won the Navy title, things would assuredly have been different. I would have been allowed to remain on shore duty and might even have reenlisted. But things happen the way they do for a reason, and I don't have any regrets about that. And I didn't suffer any more brain damage, other than what an occasional brewski does.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 58 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:45) * 1 lines
Maybe it was for the best then.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 59 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:50) * 1 lines
Yeah. I really didn't have a future as a pro although it might be nice to have a Navy retirement check monthly. I got into radio and had fun and then started teaching a few years ago.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 60 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (14:58) * 2 lines
Mark, like Delderfield's God, is an Englishman. Which topic in sports might be fair game...(one not being used for much right now is as likely as any, I would imagine...) Sticky wickets are forbidden. A little cross-piece sits across the tops of the wickets and it that little bale (the cross-piece) that you try to knock off - the ultimate end of the game. The batter swats the ball away from the wicket to protect it. If you have put some sticky substance on the wicket to keep the bale more securely at
p it, that is a *big* No No ! (You also get 6 automatic runs for hitting out of bounds!)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 61 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (15:02) * 3 lines
Now we have a cricket topic! I was surprised there wasn't one.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 62 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 27, 1999 (18:49) * 1 lines
Mahalo Nui Loa...I just emailed Mark with the URL so he will see it when he gets to work tomorrow morning (his only access to the net)...*smiling in happy anticipation*
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 63 of 249: MarkG (MarkG) * Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (11:30) * 5 lines
Good fight, John. Unlucky with the decision (contenders always get the short straw against champions).
I still think the scoring system is crazy. You can get knocked down, and back off for the rest of the round without throwing a punch, but you'll always get nineteen points. And twenty for the round winner. Not much differential there.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 64 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (11:43) * 1 lines
It's silly, especially when you consider that point totals are not announced in amateur fights. TV may have them, but they aren't announced to the crowd (at least in the 20 point must). I've never judged a fight with electronic scoring (where two out of three judges must agree within one second that a punch has landed cleanly and then the fight score is the number of clean punches landed for each fighter). I like it in theory, but in practice, I've still seen some worse than questionable decisions.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 65 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (12:08) * 3 lines
. . . like the Holyfield win over Lennox Lewis?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 66 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Sep 29, 1999 (20:56) * 1 lines
Actually it was scored a draw (Lewis pounded him). Electronic scoring is only done in amateur bouts and at this point only in Olympic and high-profile international competition. I'm afraid it doesn't make judging any less political and nationalistic or any more honest.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 67 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (04:07) * 2 lines
Laila Ali, the youngest of Muhammad Ali's nine children, makes her professional ring debut in October. Ali is 5'10", with the face and figure of a model or movie star. She has had plenty of offers for both modeling and acting and has turned both down. I have seen two televised news accounts about her, and her opponent was not named in either story. But I saw her hit the heavy bag and throw punches at a mittened trainer and she looks more than comfortable. It will be interesting to see how she does wh
n there is another human being throwing punches at her, if no other reason than her name is Ali. BTW, there is a new number one on my top five babes list: Laila Ali. She is that beautiful. Hopefully she has excellent defensive skills and will remain so.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 68 of 249: MarkG (MarkG) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (08:31) * 1 lines
Her opponent is called April Fowler. The bout is in upstate New York Oct 8th.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 69 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (09:10) * 1 lines
Never heard of her opponent, but you can bet she's been handpicked to be cannon fodder.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 70 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (09:44) * 15 lines
I did a search on (highly recommended) google.com and found this pic.
She's into good causes like her dad, in this case, against stun belts that
are used to torture animals.
http://www.amnesty-usa.org/rightsforall/stun/press-ali.html
And a bunch more articles here:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/6251/wboxnews.htm
google.com has just replaced infind.com as my favorite search engine.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 71 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (11:09) * 1 lines
That pic doesn't come close to doing her justice. I think she's now about 20 pounds slimmer than that pic. She's listed as age 21, 5'10", 165, bu she's buffed with washboard abs.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 72 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (13:04) * 1 lines
She is a pretty lady! If, as you say, she is buffed and has washboard abs, that means she has whittled her fat percentage so low that you gentlemen's favorite part of the female form is minimalized. Hmmmm.... does that somehow make her less than desirable?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 73 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (21:13) * 1 lines
Not to me it doesn't. I'd like to whittle myself down enough to "spar" with her!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 74 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (21:23) * 1 lines
...but I thought there was a "no clutching allowed" rule...!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 75 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (21:25) * 1 lines
BTW, John, God never intended for you to whittle yourself to the size of that lady. Don't even think about it! (Unless you are thinking in some other way that I am not...)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 76 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (22:40) * 1 lines
She spars with her daddy. If I can get down to 200 pounds, I can spar with her.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 77 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 30, 1999 (23:32) * 1 lines
Ok...I agree with that! Go for it!!!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 78 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (08:32) * 6 lines
What roles to trainers and managers play during a fight, what is said to
fighters in their corner, for example, what do you think Oscar de la Hoyas
corner people were telling him? Who are the great corner people in boxing
and what are their roles?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 79 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (20:40) * 24 lines
Managers, unless they are trainers as well (and there are many manager/trainers, should stay out of the corner.
The manager himself is a dying breed in boxing. Most managerial duties have been taken over by trainers and promoters. In the older days (before Don King and Bob Arum), managers were the number one person in charge of a fighter's career, other than the fighter "himself" (before women's boxing). The manager dealt with promoters and matchmakers to get his fighter fights, negotiated the purse, hired the trainer and other corner people (a cut man is necessary in addition to a trainer in the corner), collec
the check and see to it that it is distributed--hopefully honestly and properly (after training expenses, which usually comes out of the fighter's share.
A good trainer is part coach, part psychologist, part teacher, part confidante, part drill sergeant and has to know which role to take and when to take it. In the corner, between rounds, the trainer should be the only one talking to the fighter. He should have the water bottle ready in one hand, the towel in the other.
The other man, who carries the bucket and has an array of tools in his pocket is the cut man. Some corners have more than two people in the corner, but that is totally unnecessary, and can sometimes be detrimental. The cut man is a first-aid wizard and skin magician. He should be able to slow or stop the flow of blood from all but the very nastiest cuts, stop the flow of blood from the nose unless the nose is broken, and stop swelling of the eyes. His tools of the trade are: the towel, q-tips, vaselin
, zinc oxide (related to what lifeguards use to keep their noses from sunburning, but mixed differently) to close smaller cuts, adrenaline capsules to stop larger cuts, a skinlike patching substance of recent invention, and end-swell (a small pressing-iron like device kept on ice to apply pressure and cold to swelling and bruised eyes.
There have been a lot of great cornermen (also known as "seconds") throughout the years. Lou Duva (New Jersey) stands out among those still working. Fighters Duva handles or has handled include Holyfield, Bobby Czyz, James Scott, the Mayweathers. Greg Goosen (Ten Goose Boxing Club in L.A.), a former major league catcher, is an up-and-coming trainer/manager who has handled Michael Nunn, Michael Moorer, and Hawaii's own Jesus Salud.
Teddy Atlas is a dynamite trainer. He handled Mike Tyson early in his career and Moorer (who didn't listen to him) when he lost to Foreman. Atlas also threatened Tyson with a gun while Tyson was still an amateur over allegedly trying to force Atlas' sister to have sex. It may be too bad he didn't pull the trigger.
Legendary trainers (dead, retired, or semi-retired) include: Eddie Futch (Joe Frazier, and a host of fine Philadelphia fighters), Angelo Dundee (Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali), Pat and Goody Petronelli (Marvin Hagler), Gil Clancy (George Foreman), Ray Arcel (Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Roberto Duran).
I could tell that DeLa Hoya's people wanted a more proactive approach from him in the later rounds of the Trinidad fight. They were right, but Oscar was certain that he had put away enough rounds "in the bank," and went against their advice. A smart fighter will listen to his trainer--that's what the trainer is paid for. If you don't trust the trainer's advice, fire him and hire another.
The bulk of the trainer's work is done when the fighter steps between the ropes, but the smaller and most important job begins then. Keeping the fighter focused, motivated, positive (without bullshitting him if he is behind or doing something stupid) and working as a second pair of eyes, noting weaknesses in the other fighter's defense that the fighter might not notice. Maybe the opponent doesn't snap his jab back after throwing. A good trainer would pick up on that and tell his fighter to continually
hrow a counter lead right over the lazy jab to take advantage of the opponent's open chin. If a fighter does a good job of covering the head, the trainer will remind the fighter to "take the body, the head will follow." (Cliche, but tried and true.) Teddy Atlas kept telling Moorer to circle to his right against Foreman, which Moorer did for most of 10 rounds (the fight was scheduled for 12). That gave Moorer, a southpaw with better hand and foot speed than Foreman, the advantage of getting his quick r
ght jab off into the left side of Foreman's face, and also kept Moorer out of harm's way from Foreman's thunderous straight right. Moorer put the first nine rounds in the bank, but then started to go against his advice, standing still to trade and eventually circling to the left. Moorer was moving to his left when Foreman connected with a short, sweet right ro the chin that Moorer neither saw nor felt on his way to dreamland.
Angelo Dundee noted that Sonny Liston hadn't taken Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) seriously enough and had sloughed in his training before their first bout. He told Ali to keep baiting him with the "big, ugly bear" line, which truly pissed Liston, an incredible physical specimen, off. He told Ali to keep jabbing and talking, jabbing and talking, and keep moving to the right, away from Liston's right. Liston finally realized he couldn't catch his younger, faster, constantly tauting challenger and refu
ed to come out for the seventh round. A new champion and legend was born.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 80 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (21:02) * 1 lines
Wow! This is really interesting stuff! We used to watch the Tuesday-night fights on ESPN, but not sure if they still carry it. I always wondered what exactly the cut man was using and the efficacy of the stuff...it is truly impressive. You make it sound like an art form...!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 81 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (21:15) * 1 lines
You're probably the reason they call it the "Sweet Science" ... or am I confused and mixing metaphors? 'Twould not be the first time...!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 82 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (22:35) * 1 lines
They do call it the "sweet science" but I'm not the reason. I'm not sure, but I think that nickname started from the beauty and sheer physics of Sugar Ray Robinson's ring mastery (he won his first 123 fights).
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 83 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (22:39) * 1 lines
When I was a kid and all these now-legendary boxers were active, they were tall, their muscles well defined and they had a grandeur about them. Now they are shorter than I am and almost as slender of frame. What happened?!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 84 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (22:49) * 1 lines
You got bigger and less impressed. Finely trained boxers are still wonderful physical specimens, but most eschew weight training in the belief that it makes their muscles too bulky and slow. Some, though go on specialized regimens of weight training designed by consultants such as Mackey Shilstone, who helped bulk up Michael Spinks from light-heavyweight to heavyweight.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 85 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (22:55) * 2 lines
I am sure your analysis is correct. To a little kid, they looked like giants - like that statue of David by Michelangelo, even. But, I did get bigger and was impressed more by other things, I suppose. Call me jaded! Michael Spinks was had a great physique as I recall...they are still out there. And, I understand about all that muscle - nothing but heavy weight hanging around on you not being used if it is not utilized in your sport. Good point to remember.
Thanks!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 86 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 6, 1999 (22:58) * 1 lines
eeeek...Michael S. had a....(kill the "was")
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 87 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Oct 7, 1999 (09:12) * 7 lines
That was a great explanation of the cornerman's role, worthy of being a
magazine article or something, informative as hell.
What is the role of the promoter and what are some of teh great promoters
of today and the past. Specifically, how has Don King affected boxing?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 88 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (01:15) * 32 lines
The biggest thing a promoter is is a salesperson. The promoter has to put up the money to put on a fight card. The promoter can use his or her own money. If he or she is wealthy, so much the easier. But then, the promoter singularly assumes any and all risk. Most promoters use OPM (other people's money). It's not necessarily unlike being a Hollywood producer. The promoter is a person with a dream--in this case of getting two fighters together (the main event on a fight card). The promoter tries fi
st to sell other investors the dream, then when all the elements are put into place (money is there to pay the purses of the main eventers, the undercard fighters, the arena, security, advertising, transportation costs, on-site training expenses, hotels, performance bond--a necessity in today's shaky market, especially since a fighter could get injured in training and pull out, referees, judges, sanctioning fees if it is a title fight, and of course, the promoter's employees salaries) the promoter goes ab
ut the business of selling the public the dream as well. Advertising is a must, but smart promotion also means getting the media interested to get as much copy and air time possible to generate word of mouth among fans and other possible spectators (consumers).
Don King, like him or not, is the ultimate promoter. He knows exactly how to sell the dream. He is keenly intelligent--if amoral--and preternaturally media savvy. He first comes up with a slogan to position the fight as more than a fight. It is an event. Then he uses the media to plant that slogan as a mantra in the collective public mind. "Rumble in the Jungle, "Thrilla in Manila, "The Pride and the Passion," "The Power and the Glory"...King knows how to make his fight a must-see in the minds of fa
s. He has redefined the role of the promoter, or perhaps refocused it. King, who likes to be the master of all he surveys, has taken a proactive approach that has essentially cut others out of the loop.
When he finds a fighter whom he considers promotable on his terms, he tries to cut ties with that fighter's manager, if the fighter has one (e.g.: how King got Tyson to cut ties with manager Bill Cayton, who allegedly had an iron-clad contract with Iron Mike). King: "Do you need Satan?" Tyson: "Huh?" King: "I meant, Cayton, but the question still applies." King will take over all facets of the fighter's career, including hiring a trainer--with the fighter's money-- who answers to King, not to the figh
er.
If King is unable to cut the ties, but the fighter is determined to go with King, the manager is paid off to become a low-level consultant and in effect, King has become the fighter's manager as well as the promoter (would you want Don King to be accountable for distribution of money in your camp?). But King has the heavyweight division almost all wrapped up, and nearly all fighters seem powerless to tell him no.
George Foreman has made sure that King has no paper ties over his career. Foreman will fight a King promoted and managed fighter, but will sign no pact with King himself, other than just to fight. The main person Foreman is beholden to for his career (he is self-managed) is Seth Abraham, programming czar at HBO. Fighters like Mike Tyson and Julio Cesar Chavez have become virtual slaves to King. Some fighters are perfectly happy with the situation, but King, like what Colonel Tom Parker did to Elvis, e
acts a much larger share of any purse than what I would consider fair, reasonable, or even conscionable. There is also little doubt in my mind that King has at least three sets of books: his own, those he shows fighters, and those he shows the IRS.
King's top fighters, although they have fought for all the alphabet soup sanctioning organizations' belts, are almost always a lock for a WBC (World Boxing Council) title. It is said that the WBC, which is headquartered in Mexico City, is basically just another arm of Don King enterprises, and that WBC President Jose Sulaiman is basically just King's translator and entree into the seemingly endless supply of talented Latin-American fighters.
The only other huge event manager out there is Bob Arum (Top Rank, Inc). Arum seems benign compared to King, but he is a cutthroat New York lawyer who just happens to have a much nicer public face. He is more of a delegator than is King, but really has no more interest in a fighter's well-being than King has.
If I were a fighter and wanted to go with a full-service stable (management, promotion, training), I would try to sign with Lou and Dan Duva. The Duvas run a family fight business out of New Jersey. Father Lou is a legendary cornerman (manager/trainer), son Dan is a lawyer and handles the promotional end with his sister Shelly. The Duvas have a promotional partner, Shelly Finkel, a New York attorney with experience as a rock concert promoter (which really isn't that much different, and with mosh pits,
ould be just as violent).
Cedric Kushner, a South African promoter, also has some "juice." He is the promoter/producer of Fox West Sports' "Fight Night at the Forum."
The unseen artiste in any good promotional organization is the matchmaker. The matchmaker is charged with putting together good, competitive, fights that will please the public, especially on the undercard. Matchmakers probably know more about boxing and boxers than anyone else in the promoter's employ. King does not have a matchmaker; Arum does it by contract per card; Lou Duva does it himself. Other legendary matchmakers include: Teddy Brenner (Madison Square Garden), Don "War a Week" Chargin (Kushn
r, the GW Forum), Joel "the Lip" Lipsitt, who is often contracted by Arum...Lipsitt used to be the matchmaker for the late, legendary Hawaii boxing promoter "Sad" Sam Ichinose. Back in the early 1980s, I worked part-time as a matchmaker for a promoter named Mario Silva, a former boxer and an alleged Puerto Rican mobster who for a couple of years promoted fights in Hawaii (until he killed a man in a bar brawl in New York and went to the joint for manslaughter). Silva, despite his background and alleged c
nnections, was always good to me. Casual boxing observers (but never veteran railbirds) would often ask Silva, "Why do you need that hippie as a matchmaker?" He always gave me my propers. He'd smile at people and say, "Because that hippie knows his shit."
King, BTW, started off as a numbers runner for the Cleveland mob. It is good training for what he eventually became. He also did time for manslaughter after killing a gambler with his bare hands.
A small promoter has to be creative. He has to go low budget and try to get as many things as he can for promotional consideration. He will use posters as much as possible as an advertising medium and look for the best radio/TV deals and go around to writers, radio personalities and TV sportscasters and bang the drum. He'll also try to get discounted or complimentary hotel rooms, air fares, rental cars, etc. for including the hotels, airlines, and transportation companies in advertising (logos on poste
s, TV and print ads, and quick mentions in radio spots). Promoters have not yet learned to use the internet as a medium for promoting fights, but I'll bet a guy like King or Arum will figure a way to make it work for them sometime soon.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 89 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (10:37) * 11 lines
This is another awesome rundown, these responses are worthy of being a
feature article on a major publication website like ESPN! We're lucky
that you're sharing these insights with us.
I was intrigued about your comment about promoters getting to the
Internet, how do you think they'll utilize it? Will there be pay per view
events? Are there any decent boxing websites out there?
What kind of stuff did you do as Silva's matchmaker?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 90 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (10:55) * 7 lines
There are some pretty good websites out there. Mostly run by computer savvy railbirds and gamblers. The official sites (The Ring, WBA, WBC) suck. I'll put some up later when I have time to look (I'm terrible about bookmarking, but have a decent memory).
Internet pay-per-view is certainly one avenue, but is not all that viable yet because so few customers have T1 or ISDN connections. Sites devoted strictly to pre-fight hype and mentioned by graphics in TV commericials and voice in radio commercials is a major possibility. As much hoopla as surrounded the Ali-Foreman fight, King could have drilled it home even further if he'd had the web then. How about "www.rumble.com" Is that a memorable URL or what?
As Silva's matchmaker it was my responsibility to put together the best fights possible on the budget available (purse, transportation, etc.) He would usually take care of the main event himself, although sometimes one fighter would back out, and if that was the opponent instead of the local fave, I would be charged with the replacement. I would compare records--both numbers and who they fought--look at recent trends, if someone was in their prime or slipping, styles, boxers, boxer-punchers, runner-surv
vors, and try to get the best bang per buck. Ideally you would get as even matches as possible between fighters with crowd-pleasing styles. I would use contacts I knew, mostly referees and fight judges around the country, if a fighter looked good to me on paper, but I'd never seen him in person or on TV or tape before. I was starting to get pretty good at it, and we were making a modest amount of money--not losing--which is rare for Hawaii promotions, when Mario got into trouble. I don't have the "kah
nes" to promote, myself. Too risky and I'm already a poor man.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 91 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (11:36) * 4 lines
Have you thought of doing your own boxing website? You certainly have the
expertise and writing skills to pull it off!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 92 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (12:18) * 15 lines
I don't have the time...and it would be hard to sell it from Hawaii. I log on to the Spring too much *SMILE* Enjoy most of the smart people here.
Here are what I consider the best boxing sites:
1. Honest Howie's @ http://www.boxingranks.com It is a gambler's site, run by an oddsmaker. Gives his own independent rankings.
2. http://www.boxingpress.com good independent rankings, plus the official stuff as well
3. http://www.boxingtimes.com
4. http://www.boxingonline.com
5. http://www.boxinginsider.com
All have their own agendae...some are run by writers, some by gamblers, Boxing Insider is a beautiful site with excellent graphics and decent analysis, but the writing appears to have been proofread by fifth-graders. Still, all these sites have their merits.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 93 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (12:47) * 1 lines
Great stuff, as usual, John. Much thanks!!! Why do I immediately cringe and become skeptical when your first URL is "Honest Howie's"...?!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 94 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (16:54) * 21 lines
Wow, Honest Howie's heavyweight rankings:
Heavyweight Division
Champion - LENNOX LEWIS
1. Ike Ibeabuchi
2. David Tua
3. Hasim Rahman
4. Andrew Golota
5. Michael Grant
6. Chris Byrd
7. Kirk Johnson
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Mike Tyson
10. John Ruiz
Holyfield 8th and Tyson 9th (no surprise).
And Lennox Lewis deservedly at number one.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 95 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (16:56) * 29 lines
And it the controversy dept:
SEATTLE (Reuters) - In the long and checkered history of professional
boxing there has never been a match quite like the battle of the sexes on
the card at Seattle's Mercer Arena Saturday -- a chance for a man and a
woman to slug it out legally.
The fight pitting Margaret ``Tiger'' MacGregor, 36, against Loi Chow, 33,
the first officially sanctioned male-female bout, has attracted
international media attention along with howls of outrage from
professional boxing circles.
The Association of Boxing Commissions, citing ``very real health and
safety concerns,'' is recognizing the fight only as an exhibition. One
well-known trainer offered $5,000 to call off the match, and a state
representative wants to make mixed-sex boxing illegal.
``We really think it's a dangerous precedent, and it's something that
women's boxing is not embracing in any form,'' said Rick Kulis, a longtime
sports promoter and founder of the International Female Boxers
Association.
...
more at
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991007/sp/boxing_sexes_1.html
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 96 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (17:29) * 2 lines
I saw some coverage on the subject of the mixed sex boxing match on ESPN's SportsCenter. Very weird. No matter what the outcome, someone will have
valid excuses for it.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 97 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (20:15) * 1 lines
I'd posted an AP story about it previously with a remark about the apocalypse being upon us. I just plain don't like it--and it doesn't matter who wins.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 98 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (20:31) * 1 lines
It is worse than having women in combat as far as I am concerned. This is complete idiocy and they can count on my not watching it!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 99 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (20:32) * 1 lines
BTW, Marcia, yes the name "Honest Howie" is used-car laughable, but you'll get the straight scoop from him long before you will from the WBA, WBC, WBO, IBF, IBA, IBC, NABF, or Don F-----g King. I'm also quite partial to the Boxing Press site, as well.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 100 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (20:37) * 1 lines
Ok, I will take your word for it because I trust you! Howie and the Boxing Press for my boxing news...the rest are "waste time"!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 101 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (20:55) * 43 lines
Here are Honest Howie's takes on some upcoming big fights.
Naseem Hamed vs. Cesar Soto October 22, 1999
Hamed by middle to late round KO. Soto can be hit, and Hamed sure can hit hard, so the ending should favor Hamed, who has looked awful in his last couple of outings and has a tendency to get knocked down. Soto is on another level than Paul Ingle, who gave Hamed a scare, and so there should be good exchanges and ebb and flow, but Hamed's superior quickness and power should win out. Hamed needs to buckle down and win impressively if he's going to silence the critics of his wrestling-style entrances to the
ing. Hopefully we'll be spared the backlit effect where Naseem's Dumbo ears look like giant alien elongated protruberances of unknown origin, and I must admit I'm secretly hoping that the insufferably arrogant Hamed takes a pratfall doing his patented over-the-ropes flip.
Erik Morales vs. Wayne McCullough October 22, 1999
Morales by middle to late round KO. Wayne McCullough is still tough and gritty, but he's older and slower and smaller than the harder-hitting Erik Morales. Wayne's heart should carry him for a while but, barring a lucky punch, Morales' two-fisted attack should wear down the past-his-prime McCullough.
Mike Tyson vs. Orlin Norris
October 23, 1999
Tyson by early to middle round KO Orlin Norris is tailor-made for Tyson: Norris is always in front of you and looking to trade, a disastrous situation against the bigger, stronger, harder-hitting Tyson. That's why Tyson is fighting Norris, because Mike needs and wants some easy money fights before setting his sights higher. I don't know if Tyson can still beat a young up and coming heavyweight contender, but he can certainly still starch the Orlin Norris types.
Roy Jones vs. Graciano Rocchigiani November 6, 1999
Jones by decision. This should be Jones' toughest test since the first Montell Griffin fight, when Jones, behind on the judges' cards, hit Griffin while Montell was on the canvas and was disqualified. Roy Jones was always a legend in his own mind, but he used to be able to back it up in the ring. Jones seems to me to be slipping, with his quickness receding like his diminishing desire to fight. By contrast, this is the chance of a lifetime for Rocchigiani, who is definitely a top tier light-heavyweight c
ntender. I don't think Rocchigiani will pull off the upset, but I think he'll do better than expected, leading others to question whether Jones still has the goods to back up the attitude that makes Naseem Hamed seem humble.
Lennox Lewis vs. Evander Holyfield November 13, 1999
Lewis by middle to late round KO. This is the end of the line for Evander Holyfield. Lewis fought cautiously last time, and I expect a lot more aggression from Lennox this time around. Lewis now knows for sure he can beat Holyfield, while Evander is older and slower than last time. Holyfield is used up after all his wars over the years, and his confidence must have eroded. Lewis is both bigger and stronger than Evander, and also has the edge in quickness. Combined with the psychological anger fueling Le
is, and Holyfield's knowledge that this is probably his last fight, win, lose or draw, I think Lewis will be able to take out Holyfield in a thrilling if sad KO that even the judges can't take away from Lennox. I would be surprised if Holyfield has enough left in the tank to make much of a contest of the rematch.
Michael Grant vs. Andrew Golota November 20, 1999
Golota by late round KO. This should be a terrific fight for the fans, with lots of heavy exchanges and maybe more knockdowns than Foreman v. Lyle. Grant looked awful beating Lou Savarese, a club fighter, and seemed to be low on stamina. By contrast, Golota has fought better opposition and has gone the rounds. On the other hand, Golota is what is known in classical Freudian psychoanalytic technical jargon as a nut job, and you never know if he'll have his head screwed on right come fight night, or do a d
psy-doodle like he did against Lennox Lewis. My guess is that Lou Duva has had enough time and a few fights with Golota to get his man in the zone or the cagey Duva would not have matched Andrew against Grant. This is Grant's big chance to shine, but I'm guessing that Golota will be ferocious and will wear down and take out an increasingly tired Michael Grant in the late rounds.
John's postscript:
I see that Howie doesn't think that Michael Grant is ready for Golota yet. He just may be right. Golota is big, quick, powerful, is now with Duva in his corner--but as Howie so aptly puts it: a nut job. I did not see the Grant vs. Savarese fight, but all I talked to who saw it said Grant looked awful. I hope it was the wake up call he needs. This is a big risk for Golota and a big opportunity for Grant. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Grant's physicality will frustrate Golota, who will be
disqualified for low blows (what the hey, take a risk occasionally...Golota has been known to hit way South before). BTW, today is Laila Ali's debut. If anyone hears the results before I do, please post.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 102 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (21:26) * 44 lines
From Reuters:
Ali's Daughter Announces Boxing Debut
By Jill Serjeant
BEVERLY HILLS (Reuters) - As nervous as a butterfly and as jittery as a bee, the daughter of former heavyweight champion
Muhammad Ali Tuesday announced her professional boxing debut.
She has already been dubbed the ``Madame Butterfly'' of women's boxing despite not having even a fought a single amateur
bout. But Laila Ali, 21, knows she has much to prove -- not least to her doubtful father whose dazzling hands and footwork
allowed him to ``float like a butterfly and sting like a bee''.
``He's skeptical about it. He's not comfortable with it. He doesn't want me to get hurt. But he's going to support me as a father,''
Ali told a news conference announcing her Oct. 8 debut as a professional heavyweight. Ali, a tall 168-pounder who took up
boxing only a year ago, said she would fight April Fowler at the Turning Stone Casino in Verona, New York in what is likely to
be the most closely scrutinized bout in the history of female boxing.
``Nervous? Yes. I'm nervous,'' she admitted. ``There is a lot of pressure on me. I know that everybody is going to be watching
me. All expectations are going to be very high.''
``I'm gonna get hit. I'm gonna get my face swollen. That's going to happen. Every other fighter deals with it and so will I,'' she
said. The youngest daughter of Ali's nine children, 5 foot 10 inch tall Laila said she had sparred with her father -- now ailing
with Parkinson's disease after 21 years in the ring -- and had done some of her training at his private gym in Michigan.
But she was reluctant to draw too close a comparison with the man won his first world heavyweight title at the age of 22 and
went on to anoint himself ``The Greatest''.
``I think my footwork is very good, like my father's. I'm also very strong, very confident.''
``I'm coming to this sport with respect to other female boxers. I'm not planning on just coming in and dominating this sport
because there are a lot of other women who have been training long and hard,'' she said.
Ali, who also runs her own nail salon business in Los Angeles, said she became interested in boxing at the age of about 18,
long after her father retired.
It started as a form of exercise until she got hooked ``when I felt how good it was hitting a bag.'' For the past year she has
been training six days a week, running three or four miles (5-6.5 km) a day.
She and her father have not yet decided whether he will watch her take on Fowler -- a former amateur who lost her only
professional fight.
And she was uncharacteristically tight-lipped about how much she would earn from the bout. ``I'd rather not answer that,'' she
said.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 103 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (21:31) * 3 lines
For those using metric and have no handy converter, I'll try again:
Laila Ali is 5'10" (70 inches) tall (177.8 cm) and weighs 168 pounds (76.2Kg)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 104 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Fri, Oct 8, 1999 (21:44) * 48 lines
Friday, October 8
Ali's daughter wins by knockout
Associated Press
VERONA. N.Y. -- They called Muhammad Ali "The Greatest." Just call his daughter "The Quickest."
With her father watching from ringside, 21-year-old Laila Ali made her pro boxing debut by knocking out April Fowler at 31 seconds of the first round Friday night before about 2,800 fans at the Turning Stone Casino Convention Center.
It was no fight at all. Fowler, a waitress from Michigan City, Ind., was inept in the ring, often turning her head as she punched. Ali speared her with several jabs and then knocked her out with a left-right to the jaw.
When Fowler hit the floor, Ali stood over her with her fist cocked, reminiscent of how her father stood over a KO'd Sonny Liston in the first round of their rematch in 1965.
Her father showed no emotion when the fight ended, but his wife, Lonnie, smiled broadly.
The 5-foot-10 Ali, who weighed 166 pounds, could have trouble finding opponents because most female boxers are not that heavy.
While the daughter was in the co-featured match, it was the father who drew the crowd. Shortly before 9 p.m., as the ring announcer acknowledged "a man who needs no introduction," the crowd rose to its feet, cheering.
Muhammad Ali then entered the ring with Lonnie. Also accompanying him was Hannah, Laila's sister, and one of two daughters Ali had with his third wife, Veronica.
Laila's mother, Veronica Kennedy, sat on the other side of the ring from Ali.
Laila Ali, who owned a nail salon in Los Angeles, said she got interested in boxing when she took it up as exercise to lose weight.
It has been suggested that she is exploiting one of the most famous names in sports. In a TV appearance earlier in the week, however, she said, "It is my name, too, so I don't feel I'm exploiting anything."
Fowler, fighting for just the second time -- she was knocked out in the first round 18 months ago -- had said she expects to be back serving tables at her restaurant Saturday night. Fowler, who is divorced, also said she plans to celebrate her son's ninth birthday Sunday.
The fight preceded a 10-round heavyweight match between Donovan "Razor" Ruddock and Jose Ribalta. Ruddock knocked down Ribalta twice and stopped him at 1:49 of the first round.
There was no question, however, that the main attraction was the Ali name.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 105 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Oct 9, 1999 (10:21) * 6 lines
No question! She's going to have a tough time finding opponents alright,
obviously this first one was a soft touch to avoid embarassment. The
fight wasn't televised either. It sounds like she could handle much
tougher opponents.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 106 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sat, Oct 9, 1999 (16:05) * 1 lines
Just from what I saw of her, she could probably embarrass a lot of male middleweights, although I am totally against the idea of intergender boxing and it almost makes me glad that Andy Kaufman is dead.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 107 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 13, 1999 (21:22) * 2 lines
For those who just have to know, Margaret McGregor (age 36, 130 pounds) pounded out a unanimous decision over Loi Chow (age 34, 125 pounds), in the first intergender professional boxing match sanctioned in Washington state (and the first known anywhere). McGregor, a landscaper and former kickboxer is now 4-0. Chow, a jockey and weightlifter (who moved like his muscles were carved of stone) is now 0-3. No one was hurt, but the crowd was terminally bored by the lack of action, even though the women in th
audience were thrilled at the outcome.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 108 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Wed, Oct 13, 1999 (23:08) * 1 lines
There'll be no keeping them barefoot and pregnant now!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 109 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 13, 1999 (23:51) * 1 lines
That was never my intention. My uncles did plenty of that, thank you. I just don't want to see a woman killed in the ring because this woman was able to beat some tomato can who didn't know how to fight.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 110 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Wed, Oct 13, 1999 (23:52) * 1 lines
But I guess if being killed in the ring--and in combat--is equality, that IS what the women's movement is fighting for. (I'm not against equal pay for equal work, BTW. G.I. Jane should get combat and hostile fire pay.)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 111 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Thu, Oct 14, 1999 (00:36) * 1 lines
I was being facetious...but you make valid points. I never intended to mean you, Joh, dear, but your comment that the ladies in the audience were thrilled by the outcome made me think of that phrase. Ill timed, as is most of what I have posted lately! Sorry!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 112 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Thu, Oct 14, 1999 (01:07) * 1 lines
I saw a brief video clip. The audience was mostly women...and understandably they were thrilled. I don't know if this is true equality--frankly, I'm not sure what true equality is--but it is someone's idea of it.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 113 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 15, 1999 (20:14) * 1 lines
...as far as I can figure, true equality is such that no one is satilsfied with the arrangement - either sex! Women shall partake in combat when men bear children! The whole notion sounds better than the implementation of same, I am afraid!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 114 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sat, Oct 16, 1999 (22:39) * 1 lines
I think there are more women ready for combat then there are men ready for childbearing.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 115 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 17, 1999 (13:22) * 1 lines
You could safely wager the farm on that...or even willing whether or not they are ready!!!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 116 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (00:35) * 2 lines
Yet another desultory chapter in the ongoing saga of Mike Tyson, a.k.a. "Count
Dreck-u-la." Tyson was disqualified in his bout with former cruiserweight champion Orlin Norris today in Las Vegas. Tyson hit Norris in the head after the bell ended the first round. Norris hit the canvas hard, which injured a knee and rendered him unable to continue. The fight was on pay-per-view, and as usual, I am glad I did not waste my all too meager, hard-earned dollars on watching this escaped psychiatric patient/human train wreck.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 117 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (00:46) * 1 lines
I was just listening to ESPN radio about the fight. There are clearly no clear decisions on whether Norris had a knee injury, but they all agree on the cheap shot after the bell. When will they DQ Tyson for all times? Probably after he stops drawing the rich, famous and stupid to pay big bucks to watch his side show!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 118 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (00:57) * 60 lines
Tyson-Norris Fight Ends in No Contest
Norris injures knee and can't continue after blow lands late
ASSOCIATED PRESS
LAS VEGAS, Oct. 23 — Mike Tyson knocked down Orlin Norris with a left to the head after the bell ended the first round Saturday night and the fight was declared a no contest. Ring announcer Jimmy Lennon, Jr. said the fight was
stopped "after an accidental foul."
The stoppage of the fight was greeted with loud boos from the crowd in the MGM Grand Garden, which was the scene of Tyson's third-round disqualification for biting Evander Holyfield's ears on June 28, 1997.
As soon as the fight was stopped, a host of security personnel flooded the ring.
Several minutes after the fight ended, Norris remained sitting on his stool.
Abel Sanchez, co-trainer of Norris, said the fighter could not continue because of a twisted knee. After ringside doctor Flip Homansky examined Norris and conferred with Nevada Athletic Commission members, the commission took its action.
Tyson had his right glove on Norris' arm when the bell rang to end the first round. Then Tyson shot home a short left to the head that dropped Norris.
"He threw it (the fight)," Tyson said. "How (did) I hit him in the jaw and he hurts his leg?"
After Norris went down, Tyson went to a neutral corner and was followed there by referee Richard Steele, who lectured him. Steele then turned and signaled he was penalizing Tyson two points.
Meanwhile, Norris got up and walked slowly to his corner as Steele beckoned Homansky to come look at Norris.
While this was going on, many in the crowd of 12,987 were venting their
displeasure.
Tyson, fighting for the first time since he knocked out Francois Botha with a single right on Jan. 16, put pressure on Norris from the outset. He landed a couple of hard rights, but he was mostly wild. Norris got in a punch or two, but was mostly wild, too.
Then came the left after the bell that ended the fight as Norris left the ring
with an ice bag on his right knee and was helped by Sanchez. Those remaining in the arena booed him.
It was another bizarre happening in the life and career of Tyson. Because of out-of-the ring problems, the match was only the eighth in the last eight years for Tyson. His career was interrupted by a three-year prison term on a rape conviction, and this year by a 3½ month jail term for assaulting two motorists in Maryland after a fender bender.
Tyson was supposed to get $8.7 million, but it was not immediately known if his purse would be withheld. Norris' purse was to be $800,000, but because of his manager's cut and an IRS lien, plus a court order involving a lawsuit with former promoter Frank Warren, he was only to receive $264,640.
Tyson is supposed to fight Shannon Briggs on Feb. 26 in Madison Square Garden. Before this fight, there was the possibility he would also fight in December. What happens now is anybody's guess.
The 33-year-old Tyson weighed 233 pounds, having lost 57 pounds since he was released from jail May 24. The 34-year-old Norris weighed 218.
Tyson's record remains 46-3 with 40 knockouts. Norris, a former cruiserweight champion, is 50-5 with 27 knockouts.
On the undercard Saturday night, Diego Corrales knocked down Roberto Garcia twice in the sixth round before finishing him off with an overhand right at 48 seconds of the seventh to take Garcia's IBF junior lightweight title.
It was the first loss in 33 fights for Garcia, making his third defense of the
title he won in March 1998 from Harold Warren.
Corrales (29-0, 24 knockouts) hurt Garcia with a flurry of punches in the sixth, finally knocking him down with a short left followed by a right hand with a minute left in the round.
Garcia got up, but his legs were rubbery and he went to one knee after a big right hand with 15 seconds late. He managed to get up again and the round ended before he could be hurt further.
© 1999 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
JOHN'S POSTSCRIPT: It was announced that Tyson's purse would be held up pending a meeting of the Nevada State Boxing Commission. Tyson was NOT disqualified, as I erroneously surmised earlier. The fight was called a "no contest."
This is another bizarre (read that "stinking of Don King") decision. Steele took two points from Tyson after the end of the round, but ring annoucer Jimmy Lennon, Jr. was instructed to announce that the match was a no-contest due to an "accidental foul" on the part of Tyson.
Common sense (and boxing rules) would dictate that if two points are deducted for the late blow, how could the foul be accidental? The reason for calling it a "no contest" rather than coming to the proper conclusion (a disqualification) is two-fold: 1) preserve Tyson's record (no, not his criminal record, although this is certainly related), and to keep Norris from getting a victory by disqualification. Norris had a clause in his contract for a rematch at three times the $800,000 purse he fought for, sh
uld he win. That would cost Don King $2.4 million dollars for Norris alone, for a match the public probably wouldn't pay to see. This was not a sellout ringside at the M-G-M Grand (big heavyweight fights, title or otherwise almost always sell out in Vegas), and who knows how much was made or lost via pay-per-view. I'm a hardcore boxing fanatic and I wouldn't pay to see it.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 119 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (01:07) * 27 lines
YET ANOTHER SIGN THAT THE BOXING APOCALYPSE IS UPON US!
Olympic Boxing Champ Arrested: 48-year-old Stevenson headbutted airline employee
ASSOCIATED PRESS
MIAMI, Oct. 23 — Three-time Olympic boxing champion Teofilo Stevenson of Cuba was arrested Saturday for headbutting a United Airlines worker who tried to stop
him from passing a checkpoint to board a flight to his home country, Miami-Dade Police said.
Miami-Dade Police Sgt. Steven Leibowitz said the 48-year-old Stevenson was charged with aggravated battery and resisting arrest with violence. Stevenson posted $12,500 bond and caught a later flight to Cuba, Leibowitz said.
The injured airline worker, 41-year-old Pedro DeLeon tried to stop Stevenson as the boxer tried to force his way past a checkpoint, police said. Stevenson headbutted DeLeon, chipping DeLeon's front tooth, they said.
Airport police arrived to find United Airlines workers trying to restrain
Stevenson. When officers stepped in, Stevenson began fighting them. Police were able to arrest the combative boxer without being injured.
Alexandra Villoche, general manager for United Airlines in Miami, said DeLeon was looked at by paramedics and sent home. He had cut lips and a chipped tooth, she said.
The 6-foot-3, Jamaican-born Stevenson grew up in Cuba and still lives there. He was a super heavyweight champion in the Olympics, winning the gold medal in 1972, '76 and '80.
In 1980, Stevenson became the first Olympic boxer to win three gold medals in the same division. He won his first gold in Munich in 1972 by default after Ion Alexe of Romania broke his thumb in the semifinal bout.
In 1986, at the age of 34, Stevenson, who always remained an amateur, won the world championship.
© 1999 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
JOHN'S POSTSCRIPT: So they let Stevenson go back to Cuba. Hmmmm...no extradition agreements there!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 120 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (01:11) * 1 lines
It is amazing how the story permutates as time passes. The ESPN guy was still in the boxing site giving his take on the fight and he called it a DQ. Now it is a "no contest" to insure all of the wrong things about this "sport." Greed triumphs once again and the populace gets their bread and circuses to keep them happy. Pathetic!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 121 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (01:16) * 1 lines
OK, John...another case of steroid poisoning??? How miserable...Apocalypse, indeed. (And most assuredly a hero's welcome to the "Fatherland of Castro" from whence come no extradition treaties...!)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 122 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (01:17) * 1 lines
Your analysis is right on the $$$, Marcia. At its best, though, I would still not put the sport in quotes. That hurts personally. Unfortunately, very little about boxing lately seems to resemble the sweet science I know and love.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 123 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 24, 1999 (01:24) * 1 lines
I truly enjoy collegiate and Olympic boxing, and the prostitution of the sport with what has been happening of late is reprehensible. I grieve with you and I am sorry I put those quotes there. Just as Pro wrestling needs a new name to preserve the true nature of collegiate and Olympic wrestling, so does the game of professional boxing. It is no longer a sport in the true sense of the word.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 124 of 249: MarkG (MarkG) * Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (08:04) * 1 lines
I hope everyone who "paid-per-view" is refunded for a "no-contest" as presumably they didn't pay to view no contest (Of course they won't be - the promoter may withhold the boxer's purse, but far be it from the TV company to withhold the fee from the promoter).
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 125 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (09:28) * 1 lines
especially considering that the promoter is Don King...
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 126 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Mon, Oct 25, 1999 (13:01) * 2 lines
Oh Mark, not a chance for a refund for those willing to pay to view it (I did not) - they did view what there was of it, for better or worse. Hours of call-in show time has been given over to the merits or demerits of the non-event. I do not recall anyone wanting their money back, but I did hear several calling for the retirement (forced, if necessary) of Tyson. Not a chance for that as long as Don King is greedy (forever!) and Tyson gets a fat paycheck! We are doomed to future hype and non-boxing even
s, I am afraid!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 127 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Fri, Oct 29, 1999 (15:10) * 1 lines
John will be disgusted (but not surprised) to learn the Nevada Boxing Commission just said some harsh words to Make Tyson on his behavior but issued no jedgement or sanctions against him. A little slap in the wrist for appearances' sake then back to business as usual. How revolting!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 128 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sat, Oct 30, 1999 (16:34) * 1 lines
It's possible that either you or I misinterpreted this. Here's my reading of it. They would have a legal fight on their hands that they could not win if they had tried to keep his purse. They did the only thing they could. They said they would not renew his license to fight in Nevada when it expires 12/31/99. If they stick to their word, that will be good enough for me. We'll see what happens then. As for Mike--he can take a hike.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 129 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sat, Oct 30, 1999 (16:57) * 1 lines
I trust your take much more than Mr Mariotti and his like on the all-night sports talk shows. He was the reporter in this case. ...make that a l o n g hike (short pier optional!)
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 130 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sat, Oct 30, 1999 (18:46) * 1 lines
They can use a long pier just as long as Mike keeps on walking when it ends!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 131 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sat, Oct 30, 1999 (18:54) * 1 lines
Precisely the point!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 132 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (10:20) * 5 lines
What's your take on the upcoming Holyfield Lewis rematch?
Can Holyfield resurrect himself? Is Lewis not a part of the fix?
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 133 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (15:27) * 2 lines
Holyfield has done it twice before when everybody said he was finished (prior to the second Bowe fight and the first Tyson fight). Lewis is definitely not part of the fix. Riddick Bowe threw a perfectly good championship belt in the trash can to avoid facing him. I don't see Holyfield honestly beating Lewis in a clean fight, but I think Lewis has to K.O. Holyfield for the powers that be to anoint him. I think he'll get screwed again if it goes to the scorecards again. Despite his infidelities and out-
f-wedlock children, Holyfield has the cleanest image in boxing, and boxing, which needs an image boost, doesn't want to let go of that. Lewis is a dreadlock-wearing Goliath who has tested positive for marijuana in the past and dare I say it--isn't American. That wouldn't matter in any other division, but in the heavyweight division, being American--and a proud one, like Holyfield or Foreman--is everything.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 134 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (16:16) * 11 lines
A shocking article in the Miami Herald that I saw at
http://sportspages.com says more than 50 fights have been fixed or tainted
over the last 12 years. Some of those involved are George Foreman,
Butterbean and others. One heavyweight admits faking a second round
knockout to Foreman in Oct, 88 in Marshall, Texas. He took a dive.
Heavyweight Andre Smiley admits to taking 14 fake knockouts bdtween 1990
and and 1997.
At least four Butterbean bouts were bogus, either thrown or "tainted with
fraud". And Foremans rise to fame was built on at least four faked fights.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 135 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (16:22) * 1 lines
Sadly, this no longer surprises me...saddens me, yes!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 136 of 249: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (16:26) * 3 lines
And this is the tip of the iceberg. Or so the article says.
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 137 of 249: Marcia (MarciaH) * Sun, Oct 31, 1999 (16:33) * 1 lines
*sigh* They might just as well do as Pro Wrestling did and make it a side-show in actuality rather than masquerading as a legitimate sport...unless they wish to clean house with a REALLY stiff broom!
Topic 40 of 71 [sports]: boxing
Response 138 of 249: John Burnett (mrchips) * S